Interview with Harlan Copeland [August 27, 2003]

Patricia Kuentz:

We're rolling on the tape now. Today is Wednesday, August the 28th.

Harlan Copeland:

7th.

Patricia Kuentz:

7th. See? That's how it works. 27th of 2003. I'm at the home of Harlan Copeland in St. Paul, Minnesota. He served in the U.S. Army in the 868th Field Artillery Battalion during the Korean conflict. His highest rank that he attained was a sergeant. He was an E-5. The dates of enlistment were July of 1952 through June of 1954. He served -- let's see, he did basic at Camp Chaffee in Arkansas. Then he went to Fort Bragg in North Carolina. Then he was at Camp Baumholder, B A U M H O L D E R, in Germany. So, I am Patsy Koontz, the interviewer. I'm a volunteer with Library of Congress Veterans History Project. Well, Harlan, let's get started.

Harlan Copeland:

Okay.

Patricia Kuentz:

Now, how did you get into the service? Were you drafted? Did you enlist? How did that work?

Harlan Copeland:

Well, I was drafted. And there's a little story here. I was in college. And I guess apparently, at that time, college students were deferred. And in a rural community, I'm sure there was a lot of concern why I hadn't been called into the Army before I was. In fact, I had even been awarded an exchange trip to Belgium for that year.

Patricia Kuentz:

What school were you going to?

Harlan Copeland:

I said Kansas State University in Manhattan, Kansas.

Patricia Kuentz:

Okay.

Harlan Copeland:

And so I'd been approved and been selected to be what they call an "IFYE", an International Farm Youth Exchange delegate to Belgium. And several people wrote on my behalf to see if I could be deferred to have that experience. But the draft board said no.

Patricia Kuentz:

Oh.

Harlan Copeland:

So I graduated, I think, early June. Went home and helped my dad with wheat harvest, and we put up all hay. And on July 7th, I was on the bus to Kansas City --

Patricia Kuentz:

Oh, boy.

Harlan Copeland:

-- to be inducted into the Army. So at that time, everybody else as going in. So there weren't any thoughts about -- at that time, nobody thought about going to Canada or getting out of it. So anyway, you just assumed that was something you had to do.

Patricia Kuentz:

Was there a lot of conflict about the war? Or did the people that you know think it was probably the Right thing for us to do? Or do you recall that far?

Harlan Copeland:

I don't think there was the debate about the war that there is today, you know, about the Iraqi situation. And I think it was just assumed that it was something that had to be done. And so -- and so, you know, in this probably conservative southeast Kansas area, I mean, it was our duty to go get into the Army. And so I did.

Patricia Kuentz:

And the Army was the place to go? Were there other options?

Harlan Copeland:

If I, you know, I went to a community college to avoid two years of ROTC training at Kansas State. So because I already kind of knew what career I wanted to pursue. And I wasn't really wanting to do ROTC and then have military. But then, of course, the Korean situation came along during the process. I think if I had had a choice -- I mean, if the Navy enlistment hadn't been for four years, I would have preferred the Navy or the Air Force. But two years seemed the lesser. And so the Army it was.

Patricia Kuentz:

Go for the shorter term?

Harlan Copeland:

Right, right. You'll probably pick up, I was someone who did it, but also was counting the days until I was able to get out of the Army, you know, so --

Patricia Kuentz:

Right, right. What was your area, then, and your degree program?

Harlan Copeland:

My degree was in agriculture. I grew up on a farm. And I wanted to work in the agricultural extension service. And so agriculture was the required degree for entry into that field of work.

Patricia Kuentz:

Right, right. Okay. Tell me about the first day that you were in the service. Did it come as kind of a shock to you? Was it basically what you expected? How did things go?

Harlan Copeland:

Well, I -- for some reason or another, I assumed a very low key position. We went first to Camp Crowder, Missouri, for a few days of, I assume processing, before we were shipped to Camp Chaffee, Arkansas, for basic training. And I guess it was about what I was expected -- had expected, you know. But it was quite a change in lifestyle from being a college student living in a fraternity house. And then being in a -- you know, I don't know how many people were in this unit, on bunk beds and, you know, not very much sleep. And sergeants who were -- enjoyed throwing out their superiority and their control and so on. But you just had to get through it, you know. So you did it. Actually, the military training Wasn't that bad. I didn't think all of the classes were that fabulous but, you know, it was their curriculum. And I'd never really done very much -- I hadn't done anything with rifles or guns, even as a farm kid. So that was a new experience of the firing range. And I was never a Boy Scout, so the sleeping out on the ground didn't do a lot for me, either. I like hot showers and comfortable beds. So it was an adjustment, you know, but everybody else was doing it. You were all in the same boat with everybody else. And the kind of one interesting thing is that, going in the Army when I did, there were a lot of other college graduates that were being inducted at the same time. So there were people that you could find some common interest with and that kind of thing. And although you were also billeted with people who probably hadn't graduated from high school and from places you'd never been, like New York City or Chicago, or some place like that. So it really was a learning experience in many, many ways. But I think most of us just, you know, realized that you just participated. And, well, I don't think I was thinking that, well, I better learn all of this because it may save my life.

Patricia Kuentz:

Yeah, yeah.

Harlan Copeland:

But I participated in all of the exercises and the classes and everything. I took it seriously. I didn't try to goof off, so to speak.

Patricia Kuentz:

Yeah. Do you feel like they taught you the things you needed to know to really kind of adapt and acclimate to military life?

Harlan Copeland:

Well, that's a little hard to answer. Of course, their key -- one of their key objectives was discipline. So that when they said, "Jump", you said, "How high, how far?". And I'm a pretty compliant person, I guess, so I didn't have any problems, I guess, with too much of that. But the training with the artillery unit probably, later on, was the more crucial to survival, as I wound up in an artillery unit.

Patricia Kuentz:

Right, right.

Harlan Copeland:

But, yeah, I suppose there is -- I hadn't thought about this, but I suppose it was pretty basic, pretty essential to surviving in the military.

Patricia Kuentz:

Yeah, yeah. So where did you go, where did they send you after basic training?

Harlan Copeland:

Well, we went to Fort Bragg, North Carolina. About half of the basic training group that I was in Camp Chaffee went to Korea.

Patricia Kuentz:

Directly?

Harlan Copeland:

Directly to Korea. And then the other half of us, apparently unknownst to us, were being kind of hand picked to go to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, to be with this new battalion that they were creating that would take the 280 millimeter atomic cannon to Germany, although at that time we didn't know that. So --

Patricia Kuentz:

But there, probably from some testing, or it would be determined that --

Harlan Copeland:

I suppose testing. And maybe the fact that, again, in my cohort group, there were a lot of college graduates. And I suppose they were looking for...you know, a --

Patricia Kuentz:

People with some education beyond high school.

Harlan Copeland:

Well, sure, sure. Because they had never used this atomic 280 millimeter piece before. And so they probably didn't want to take any more chances than they had to. So they were probably looking for people who could hopefully pick it up in a relatively short instructional period. At least, that's my guess why I lucked out and went to North Carolina rather than to Korea, you know.

Patricia Kuentz:

Now, did you go by -- how did you get to North Carolina from --

Harlan Copeland:

We, of course, had leave after Camp Chaffee and that was around Thanksgiving time.

Patricia Kuentz:

Oh.

Harlan Copeland:

And so I'm not remembering -- may have actually been on the train. But anyway, wound up going to Joplin, Missouri, catching a train. And went to North Carolina via Memphis, Tennessee; Montgomery, Alabama; Georgia, and then coming up through South Carolina -- a southern route up into Fayetteville, North Carolina. That was about a two or three day train trip, as I remember.

Patricia Kuentz:

Yeah. Was it a troop train? Or was it a regular train? Was it just troops? Do you remember that?

Harlan Copeland:

I think it was.

Patricia Kuentz:

Okay.

Harlan Copeland:

But I'm not a hundred percent sure of that.

Patricia Kuentz:

But as you're thinking about it, it was mostly military on the train, if not all?

Harlan Copeland:

Yeah, I think so. We were allowed to get off. And I was looking at my notes, I told you I was kind of typing up some letters. And we did stop in Memphis and got out and looked around a little bit, which now surprises me. But I think it probably was a troop train.

Patricia Kuentz:

Okay.

Harlan Copeland:

I think it was because in some places, they shifted railroad cars, our car into another train or something. We may have been a troop car attached to another train, perhaps.

Patricia Kuentz:

Could be, could be. All right. So then you were at Fort Bragg?

Harlan Copeland:

Right.

Patricia Kuentz:

What happened there?

Harlan Copeland:

Well, here's where we got the -- the basic training at Camp Chaffee was all infantry.

Patricia Kuentz:

Right.

Harlan Copeland:

So at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, which was the nd Airborne, the home of that, here's where we got the training for working with artillery pieces. And by this time, I -- let's see, I remember that we were interviewed, you know, as we got there, which I thought was kind of interesting, you know. So somehow I got into the battalion headquarters staff. So I never actually worked on the 280 millimeter artillery piece itself. But the training there all focused on how to operate that, and so on. And so we were there -- I think we got there like in October of '52. And rumours came and went that we were on our way to Europe. And then they'd be rescinded. I think this happened three or four times. And, in fact, we didn't go then until late fall of '53 when most of us had fewer than a year left in the service, even though they shipped us intact. Because again, all the people were trained to do this. And then they would have to start it over with a whole new group.

Patricia Kuentz:

Right.

Harlan Copeland:

We were the first of the field artillery battalions to go to Europe. There were, I think, two others that subsequently came. But we were the first ones, so --

Patricia Kuentz:

Now how do you think you were selected for the office work?

Harlan Copeland:

Office work?

Patricia Kuentz:

Yeah.

Harlan Copeland:

Well, I went to a small high school. And courses were limited. And I wound up with two courses in typing.

Patricia Kuentz:

Is that right? AAnd so I got tapped to be the battalion headquarters clerk. So I'm guessing that my high school typing skills, along with probably being a college graduate, probably helped get me into that rather than being a cook or something else.

Patricia Kuentz:

Yeah, okay.

Harlan Copeland:

And most of the guys that were in the battalion headquarters office, you know, for personnel work and S3, Intelligence, and S4, Supply, and all of those assistants to the officers, were also college grads. So I have a feeling that that probably helped me get away from the actual pulling of the lanyard to --

Patricia Kuentz:

The front lines. Yeah. So they sent you overseas to Germany?

Harlan Copeland:

Right.

Patricia Kuentz:

And how did you go to Germany?

Harlan Copeland:

Well, we loaded on buses from -- at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and went to Wilmington, North Carolina. Boarded a ship. And from there we went to San Juan, Puerto Rico. And there were several Puerto Rican enlisted men returning from the Korean war that we left in, and they had finished their tour of duty. And so they were on their way home. So we were in San Juan like overnight, unloading them and, you know, I think that -- and then we took on several more Puerto Rican men that then went with on the rest of the trip. So from Puerto Rico, we went to La Falaise, France, which is near on the west coast of France. And I'm not quite sure what our mission was there. But we were there like an overnight or so. Then we left there and went through the English Channel and docked at Bremerhaven, Germany, on the north. And then we got on troop trains and then a day or two later, we were in Camp Baumholder, Germany, which is south of Frankfurt and Nice, not too far from the northeast corner of France, near the Zar (ph), that part of Germany. It's kind of like the Appalachian region. It's very mountainous, mountain-agricultural, so on.

Patricia Kuentz:

You know, I'd never heard of that camp. Do you think it's still there?

Harlan Copeland:

I would guess that it was -- that it is. There are a couple of -- three interesting things about Baumholder. One is we all joked that the German railroad stopped at Baumholder. Was the end of the railroad line, Baumholder.

Patricia Kuentz:

End of the road?

Harlan Copeland:

But the camp had been used, as I understand it, by Rommel, in training his famous tank corps. And it had also been used in training the SSI, which I think was their, not social security but secret service --

Patricia Kuentz:

Right. Their elite --

Harlan Copeland:

Right. So it was kind of like a college campus in a way, with dormitories and two-or three-story buildings. And very -- in a kind of this really small town of maybe 2,000 very little town in Germany. If you can imagine narrow streets and farm animals and everything.

Patricia Kuentz:

Had that rural kind of a feel?

Harlan Copeland:

So it had been used, I think, during the World War, Hitler's time, as a major training base for the German military. So after the war, then, we apparently took it over. So it was a very nice campus. In fact, in my notes that I am transcribing, I wrote how much more pleasant it was than the ones at Fort Bragg. It was just a much prettier setting and better facilities, PX's and recreational facilities. Although we had wood stoves in all the rooms. So that was a feature of it.

Patricia Kuentz:

Little old fashioned.

Harlan Copeland:

Yeah. So that was interesting. But we were almost out in the middle of nowhere.

Patricia Kuentz:

So that's where you spent the rest of your career, really?

Harlan Copeland:

Right, right.

Patricia Kuentz:

Tell me what a day was like. What kinds of things did you get involved in?

Harlan Copeland:

Well, working in the battalion headquarters with the sergeant-major, I was responsible for, well, mostly typing, filing, those kinds of things. The things that that office did were like the daily bulletins.

Patricia Kuentz:

Okay.

Harlan Copeland:

We would do all the typing of leaves, leave requests, if there were court martial papers. All of the, you know, the work of the battalion commander that needed to be done. And then, of course, in Germany particularly, we took turns doing what we call "charge of quarters". That meant staying up all night by the telephone in case there were telephone messages coming in and so on. And so, instead of pulling guard duty and KP, that was the duty that those of us in the headquarters staff would do, would be "charge of quarters" about once every two weeks, something like that.

Patricia Kuentz:

And that was not onerous?

Harlan Copeland:

No, it wasn't onerous. In fact, a lot of times other friends would come. And you might stay up and listen to the radio or play cards or something til 10:30, :00 o'clock. And then I wrote letters.

Patricia Kuentz:

Sure, sure.

Harlan Copeland:

That's the time of writing letters. But there was one time I remember, my notes said that somebody had come in that had been injured somehow. So we had to determine that we couldn't handle it there. So we had to make sure he got to appropriate -- received appropriate medical attention. So it was that kind of -- the one spot, if anything were to happen, or the battalion commander needed to be contacted for any reason. We were the point of contact.

Patricia Kuentz:

Right, right. Did a lot of the guys -- and I'm assuming it was all guys?

Harlan Copeland:

Oh, yeah. There were no women. I don't think women were in the service at that time.

Patricia Kuentz:

Might not have been yet.

Harlan Copeland:

If there were, they were in WACKS or WAVES, or in their own units.

Patricia Kuentz:

Special women's group. Did the guys go on the town very much or --

Harlan Copeland:

Well, yes. There was -- even though the post was equipped with excellent beer gardens and PXs, people took -- we'd take side trips, although passes were hard to come by at first. Because being the first unit to go to Europe, there was a lot of publicity about it in the Stars and Stripes and the newspaper, you know, in Europe. And so there was a lot of security involved. But eventually people were able to go to nearby towns. The little town of Baumholder didn't hold anything for people, really, so when you left, you actually left the area. So there were side trips to Frankfurt, to Minsk, to Wiesbaden, to Kaiserbraten (ph). I tried to take as many of those as I could get approval to do. And so a lot of people did do that. And there was, again, it being a very mountainous area, there were -- it's very different county for most of us. One of the neighboring towns had a church that was hollowed out of the hillside. So there were just lots of things to go do. And we discovered German restaurants. And of course it was about Christmas time when we got there, so there was a lot of shopping that the guys would do. And the men with families weren't allowed to have their families over there yet. So there was a lot of going, leaving the base. Because there was -- well, there were good recreational facilities. But, you know, you wanted to get off of the base, too.

Patricia Kuentz:

Every once in a while you've got to see something different. Now did anyone in your unit go over to Korea or --

Harlan Copeland:

Yes, there were. And I saw a note that I heard from a friend I'd been in basic training with that had gone to Korea. I'd got a letter from him once. But apparently we didn't keep in contact very much. But I think I heard that at least one or two guys that we had basic training with had been killed over there. So I think once they left Fort Bragg, North Carolina, they got in the heat of the action ever there so --

Patricia Kuentz:

In the thick of things.

Harlan Copeland:

But I didn't, you know, I just didn't keep in touch with people. Nor did I after the service, either.

Patricia Kuentz:

I was going to ask you that, too. But now from your group that was in Germany, none of them got sent over to Korea? Or basically the group just stayed in Germany?

Harlan Copeland:

Their job -- see, the idea behind moving this, I think, this atomic cannon unit -- and there were two others that subsequently came, I believe -- was kind of a propaganda thing. The cold war was very hot right then.

Patricia Kuentz:

Kind of a show of strength?

Harlan Copeland:

And what they did with this, they took -- they mounted the artillery pieces on so that they could drive through villages and all up around. They quite often would do exercises. But they did road trips, I think, to maybe, one, maybe learn the maneuverability of it, but Also learn the highway systems and that sort of thing. But I think it was just to show the Russians that we were there. And we could point them in their direction, if necessary.

Patricia Kuentz:

We could use these.

Harlan Copeland:

We could use these. So fortunately, they were never used. But they had been tested in Nevada before we got the -- so apparently the officers knew the potential and how to do it and all of that. But we never had to actually use them. So I think it was mostly a big propaganda display while we were there.

Patricia Kuentz:

Do you think after the Korean conflict, the Korean war -- what happened to that piece, do you know?

Harlan Copeland:

You know, I do not know. That would -- this is maybe sad to say, but once I got out of the Army, I was willing to go on with the rest of my life, and I didn't follow up with it.

Patricia Kuentz:

And eager to go on.

Harlan Copeland:

But I do think they kept them in Germany because the cold war lasted considerably after that. And I would think it was probably a very good deterrent to Russian aggression at that time. But I'm speaking strictly as an opinion right now. But they were on the road a lot. And since I was in the battalion headquarters, I usually didn't go on those trips. We stayed back at the base, you know, keep the administrative stuff going. But they were on trips fairly frequently, and so I don't know whether --

Patricia Kuentz:

We'll have to look that up some time. I bet there's something on the Internet that would --

Harlan Copeland:

I'll bet there is, too. And I've often wondered if the 868 Field Military Battalion is still in existence, you know, but --

Patricia Kuentz:

That's a good question, too.

Harlan Copeland:

But we could check it out, probably, on the Internet.

Patricia Kuentz:

Yeah, we probably could. Now before we started the tape, you mentioned a little bit on the tape that you have some letters that you wrote back to your family that were saved. Did you mom save those letters?

Harlan Copeland:

Yes.

Patricia Kuentz:

Yeah? And now your transcribing them. But tell me, who did you write to? And did you get letters and packages from home? How did you stay in contact with people?

Harlan Copeland:

Well, it's interesting how important mail was. As I look at this, every letter says who I received Letters from, or when I wasn't receiving letters from them, so --

Patricia Kuentz:

Tell them to write me.

Harlan Copeland:

And, of course, we were on the troop -- I mean, the ship going over for almost two to three weeks. And so without contact with anything.

Patricia Kuentz:

Yeah.

Harlan Copeland:

But we did have national news. So we knew the ball game scores and we knew --

Patricia Kuentz:

That's the important stuff.

Harlan Copeland:

Right. But I tried to write my parents once a week. And my mother was always good about responding. But I didn't save their letters, sadly. But I kept correspondence with quite a few people, relatives, some college friends, neighbors. And I think the reason is, I just wanted to hear what things were happening back home.

Patricia Kuentz:

Yeah.

Harlan Copeland:

So I apparently kept in touch with quite a few people.

Patricia Kuentz:

That's great.

Harlan Copeland:

And in terms of packages, I -- let's see, my birthday was in October. And we got there in October. And I guess my sister had sent me, I think, an angel food cake. Took forever to get there, but it did arrive. And it wasn't too bad.

Patricia Kuentz:

It was edible?

Harlan Copeland:

It wasn't too bad. But a lot of other guys did get packages, candies, and that sort of thing. And I kind of discouraged that to some extent because food, by the time it got there, well, the cake did turn out reasonably well. But other things, they just don't hold up.

Patricia Kuentz:

They could have been past their prime.

Harlan Copeland:

But I was really impressed with how quickly, though, the -- if you sent messages -- if you sent letters airmail via the military post office, how quickly things got there, you know. And so once in a while I used the German Post, but almost 99 percent used the U.S.

Patricia Kuentz:

Yeah.

Harlan Copeland:

And once you get there, it took a while for newspapers and -- like, I know the first set of letters back, I kept saying, "Well, the hometown paper hadn't come yet, hometown paper hadn't come yet". It took a while for it to get there.

Patricia Kuentz:

But you did get it there. How nice.

Harlan Copeland:

But eventually did get it. And so communication, once it got in the pipeline, worked pretty well.

Patricia Kuentz:

And the hometown paper was probably a once-a-week kind of a thing?

Harlan Copeland:

Yeah, it's a weekly small town paper.

Patricia Kuentz:

So you could keep up with what was going on?

Harlan Copeland:

Sure, yeah. Right.

Patricia Kuentz:

That's nice.

Harlan Copeland:

But then you didn't make telephone calls as of today. And, of course, there wasn't e-mail.

Patricia Kuentz:

Right, right. Kind of before that.

Harlan Copeland:

So letters were the only communications.

Patricia Kuentz:

Did you ever talk to your folks, your family, by phone while you were there? Any special situations?

Harlan Copeland:

I don't remember that I did. And I don't think they ever called me either. I don't remember a phone call.

Patricia Kuentz:

Okay. What was food like in the service?

Harlan Copeland:

Well, I commented on the troop ship going over. Started out it was excellent. But then it got progressively worse.

Patricia Kuentz:

Do you remember the name of the ship, by any chance?

Harlan Copeland:

Yes. It was U.S. General McGray (ph) that I went over on.

Patricia Kuentz:

Okay.

Harlan Copeland:

And it was a troop ship. And, let's see, the one I came back on. I haven't got to those letters yet.

Patricia Kuentz:

Oh, okay.

Harlan Copeland:

But the food did get progressively worse. By the time we finally got to Germany, it was pretty bad.

Patricia Kuentz:

They had run out of everything fresh, I'm sure.

Harlan Copeland:

I think so, right. Even though we had docked in at Puerto Rico and France. I don't know that they took on --

Patricia Kuentz:

Was that the first time you were on a ship? I forgot to ask that.

Harlan Copeland:

Oh, yes. And maybe even been the first time I was on a train, even, you know. So a lot of these were first-time experiences.

Patricia Kuentz:

Sure. Sea-sickness on the ship? Any issues with that?

Harlan Copeland:

Well, I was lucky with that. There was one day that I almost -- because there was some pretty rough seas. And the -- when we went from Wilmington to San Juan, it seemed like the Puerto Rican men were all sick. And then when we got to San Juan, we picked up a new group of Puerto Rican men, and they were all sick for a while.

Patricia Kuentz:

Oh, dear.

Harlan Copeland:

But there was one day -- but I had one friend that had real trouble with seasickness.

Patricia Kuentz:

Basically sick the whole time?

Harlan Copeland:

But you were way down in the hole by the hull. I was in Level F or something, I think. And I spent most of the day up on deck, you know. And I remember the quarters being -- having quite a bit of vomit in them. The guys just were --

Patricia Kuentz:

Upchucking? Yuck.

Harlan Copeland:

But I was lucky. I just made it up to the deck and fresh air in time, and that took care of it.

Patricia Kuentz:

Well, that's good.

Harlan Copeland:

I survived.

Patricia Kuentz:

So while you were in the service, we talked a little bit about food. When you were in Germany, the food was --

Harlan Copeland:

Food was by German nationals, mostly. And my notes were just wonderful food. Of course, we were being introduced to a lot of things we didn't know about, like German pastries and things. Of course, I grew up in a very non-ethnic part of the world. So I didn't know any of this ethnic stuff.

Patricia Kuentz:

With the beef eaters.

Harlan Copeland:

Right. Potatoes -- meat, potatoes and gravy. And then again, I discovered German wine over there, and that was a delight. And so, yes, I made several notes in my letters how good the food was in Germany, at the base. But the German nationals did a lot of things. Like, I made a comment that there was -- of course, their economy was pretty bad still at that time.

Patricia Kuentz:

Post World War II.

Harlan Copeland:

I think there were two people who were kind of -- who did the sewing, you know, that kind of thing, like sewing on patches, and if you had repairs or so on. And so I think they even did some of the cleaning, even, now that I'm thinking about it. So we took advantage of the German nationals on the post once we got to Germany.

Patricia Kuentz:

Did you feel like you had plenty of supplies, whatever you needed to do your work, and whatever others needed to do their work? There was enough of what you needed?

Harlan Copeland:

Uh-huh. I don't remember any time that, you know, I did work in S4, so --

Patricia Kuentz:

Right, right.

Harlan Copeland:

But in terms of the office work that we did, we never were short of that. And I don't remember ever being short of food. And ammunition I can't speak about.

Patricia Kuentz:

Yeah.

Harlan Copeland:

But I don't remember there was any problem with supplies.

Patricia Kuentz:

All right. Did you feel like this was a stressful time for you? Did you feel pressure at all? How did you view this period of your life, really?

Harlan Copeland:

Well, the way I viewed it was, well, this was a two year commitment, and so you try to make lemonade out of lemons. And so -- and then there was a good group of guys in the unit that you could do things with. And so I definitely counted the days til I was able to get out. But I've often said that I wouldn't, well, I've often said I wouldn't take $10,000 for the experience, when $10,000 was worth something. But it would take a heck of a lot more than that to get me to have stayed in. So while I was in Europe, I traveled to Austria, to France, to Denmark, to -- my folks had had a German exchange student when I was in college. And I spent Christmas at his home. And then I went back the following May to his wedding. And so maybe next summer, I may go back to Germany for his th wedding anniversary. And so I went to places like Trier. And I really tried to soak up as much culture. And so you -- I just didn't -- I just went along with what I needed to do in the Army to get the job done and to not get on somebody's blacklist. And then took every chance I could to take a pass and go someplace and do something. So, you know, I never really resented giving up two years of my life. But I feel sometimes people don't appreciate that a lot of the men and women who are in service are giving up years of their life, if they aren't making it a career. Because your income is a mere pittance. You hardly -- I think we got less than $70 a month while we were in and so --

Patricia Kuentz:

$70 was different then, but it was still $70.

Harlan Copeland:

It still didn't seem like very much money.

Patricia Kuentz:

What's the fellow's name, that foreign exchange student? Do you remember?

Harlan Copeland:

His name was -- well, we called him Bill. Wilhelm Rupert (ph).

Patricia Kuentz:

Where does he live?

Harlan Copeland:

He lives near Castle, Germany. And Bill was living with my folks the year I was a junior in college. And he went to the high school in Erie. And credits his American experience with helping him become a very successful person over there. In fact, he's one of the few people I know who has a swimming pool in their home.

Patricia Kuentz:

Is that right?

Harlan Copeland:

Anyways, but Bill was just a great guy. And our families have continued our relationships in the intervening time, so it's been a really great experience, you know.

Patricia Kuentz:

What was his profession?

Harlan Copeland:

Well, he grew up as farm kid. But then he went into -- he had a real knack for equipment and inventing equipment. So he invented equipment that would trim hedge rows in Germany, and he also dug trenches. One of the first people to do it. He claimed that the experience in Kansas gave him a vision of what was ahead. And he went home and started --

Patricia Kuentz:

And helped them move forward?

Harlan Copeland:

The farm was a small German farm. And he had a brother. And so there wasn't enough for both of them, and so he went the route of that. And then, eventually, he went into working on the forests. Became -- oh, what was the problem with German forests? There was a chemical -- well, I'm blocking at the moment, but he, again, went into work in that sort of thing. So he, you know, he became very well known and very successful in his area of work.

Patricia Kuentz:

That's great. You said for entertainment that sometimes you played cards or whatever. What else did you do for entertainment? I know you traveled, but when you were on the base.

Harlan Copeland:

Sure. I don't remember this, but my letters said we went to the gym three or four times a week, so they had good gym facilities over there.

Patricia Kuentz:

So you stayed in shape?

Harlan Copeland:

The Army wanted us to.

Patricia Kuentz:

Was probably a good thing.

Harlan Copeland:

Then it was easier, you know. We were just -- we all had reasonable sized waists at that time. And so -- but I would say travel, and cards, and gym kind of thing were the most thing. I never was a reader. So other people were readers. And one guy I remember wrote home to his wife every day, a long letter, 20 pages or so.

Patricia Kuentz:

Oh, my gosh.

Harlan Copeland:

But, you know, I even had trouble keeping up with correspondence. It was apparently -- my notes said that we were really busy in the office. And so I think there wasn't a lot of free time on our hands during the so-called workday, you know.

Patricia Kuentz:

Yeah. Did you get any leave time while you were over there? You were only over there about a year, though, right?

Harlan Copeland:

Well, that's true. But I'd saved up my leave, and so a friend of mine went to visit some distant relatives in Denmark.

Patricia Kuentz:

Oh, my. That's another experience.

Harlan Copeland:

And Lee's the only one military friend that I really kept in touch with.

Patricia Kuentz:

Is that right?

Harlan Copeland:

You try to keep in touch with them, but then each year the Christmas card list gets a little smaller and so on. But that was a great experience. I took a leave and went to -- these were mostly weekend passes -- I went to Berlin. Rode the train from Frankfurt to Berlin that was - had the windows covered then, that we had to travel through east Germany. And so you couldn't look out the windows, you couldn't see the landscape.

Patricia Kuentz:

Oh, sure, okay.

Harlan Copeland:

Went to Berlin with a friend. Went to Salzburg, Austria, on my own because I couldn't find anybody who wanted to go. And then took little side trips to Frankfurt and Wiesbaden and other places around. Went to Strassberg, France, once with a group. So there was a -- I don't know if it was a German or an American activity, but they planned trips, you know, and so --

Patricia Kuentz:

They weren't -- must not have been very expensive, then, either.

Harlan Copeland:

They couldn't have been too bad because, again, there wasn't that much money. But I remember going to Strassberg, France, on one of those and with, you know, some friends. But the week in Denmark was, I think, a seven to ten day trip.

Patricia Kuentz:

Oh, that's great.

Harlan Copeland:

So that was the longest one I took.

Patricia Kuentz:

And now, what was the fellow's name you traveled with?

Harlan Copeland:

His name was Lee Splettstoesser, and he's a Minnesotan. He's from -- oh, I lost the town. Right on the river, here, on the way to Mankato. But anyway, I'll think of it.

Patricia Kuentz:

Buffalo?

Harlan Copeland:

No.

Patricia Kuentz:

I'm going in the wrong direction.

Harlan Copeland:

It's a two-term name.

Patricia Kuentz:

New _____ or --

Harlan Copeland:

No, it's -- he now lives in Arizona.

Patricia Kuentz:

And what was his last name again?

Harlan Copeland:

Splettstoesser.

Patricia Kuentz:

How do you spell that?

Harlan Copeland:

Well, it was funny. He spelled it S P L E T T S T O E S S E R. But then, as an adult, he took out a T and an S to shorten it a little bit.

Patricia Kuentz:

Okay. Is that Danish?

Harlan Copeland:

It has to be German.

Patricia Kuentz:

So somebody -- another part of the family is Danish?

Harlan Copeland:

Yes, it must have been.

Patricia Kuentz:

You said you visited his Danish relatives.

Harlan Copeland:

I'm sure that's right. And he just married before he went in. So Lee was -- and I never met his wife until, I think, after the service, you know, because -- So it's kind of interesting to be with these guys who were married and, of course, who were separated, which is, of course, a different experience than I had.

Patricia Kuentz:

Oh, yeah. Sure, sure. And they couldn't have been married very long at the time, either.

Harlan Copeland:

No, couldn't have been at all.

Patricia Kuentz:

Do you go see him in Arizona, or does he come back up this way?

Harlan Copeland:

The irony of it is that when Anne and I were married, we went on our honeymoon and we stopped -- they were in Phoenix then. And we stopped and visited them at that time.

Patricia Kuentz:

Oh, nice.

Harlan Copeland:

They since moved back to Rochester, Minnesota, and then returned back to Arizona, which they now live in Green Valley. But, yeah, we keep in touch --

Patricia Kuentz:

Oh, that's nice.

Harlan Copeland:

-- and e-mail and all of those good things.

Patricia Kuentz:

You didn't keep a diary or anything like that, did you?

Harlan Copeland:

No, I didn't. The nearest thing is the letters.

Patricia Kuentz:

But the letters serve -- that's great. Do you remember the day that your service ended?

Harlan Copeland:

Not terribly well. But when we shipped back from Germany, we landed somewhere in New York or New Jersey. I think were at Fort Dix. Then we were trained to Fort -- it's Fort Ord, Kentucky, isn't that where all the gold is.

Patricia Kuentz:

Yeah, that sounds right.

Harlan Copeland:

So that's where I was released. And, you know, I don't even remember how -- I don't even remember how I got home, even, from there. But we had to stay there three or four days while the papers were processed and so on, you know.

Patricia Kuentz:

How'd it feel?

Harlan Copeland:

Well, you know, I was happy to get back to civilian live again, because I think I even had a job at that time.

Patricia Kuentz:

Oh, you had something lined up?.

Harlan Copeland:

Something lined up to go to, and I had to go To --

Patricia Kuentz:

How did you manage that?

Harlan Copeland:

I had to go to be interviewed for it. Well, I had been fairly active in 4-H program in Kansas. And so the state forest leader -- there'd been an opening in Dodge City that had opened up. And so, apparently, I think he was kind of holding that open...[End of Tape 1, Side 1][Start of Tape 1 Side 2] ...events and working on things like judging events and county fairs. And the variety of events the program offered at that point.

Patricia Kuentz:

Okay. I'll ask you a little bit more about your career. But first I'll ask, did you use any of the benefits that you would have gotten from having been in the service? Did you use the GI Bill, the VA loan, any of that stuff?

Harlan Copeland:

My Masters Degree was -- I wouldn't have been able to do my Masters Degree without the GI Bill.

Patricia Kuentz:

All right, that's good.

Harlan Copeland:

So then the other thing is that I continued working with the international cross cultural programs in Kansas. So I think my experience in Europe was definitely an asset to that, to help you, you know, acquire the sensitivity that -- of another culture. So that I would say would be a real contribution to the military service that I had. But the GI Bill definitely. I did have a fellowship. At that time, there was no money to have saved up while you were in the Army. So, yeah, that was terrific.

Patricia Kuentz:

Where did you get your Masters?

Harlan Copeland:

University of Maryland.

Patricia Kuentz:

All right. And did you ever use the VA loan to purchase a house?

Harlan Copeland:

No, I haven't used the VA loan or VA services for anything. I've wondered if I shouldn't check into the Veterans medical and hospital benefits. But I've never done any of that, so --

Patricia Kuentz:

Yeah, yeah.

Harlan Copeland:

But no, haven't used any of the other benefits.

Patricia Kuentz:

Okay. Did you ever join any veterans organizations?

Harlan Copeland:

No, I didn't. I think -- I don't know. I was glad to put the two years of time in. But I didn't feel a need, I think, to continue that, you know.

Patricia Kuentz:

Yeah.

Harlan Copeland:

So, no.

Patricia Kuentz:

The relationships that you wanted to continue, you did.

Harlan Copeland:

Yeah, right.

Patricia Kuentz:

So now, let's talk about your career after the military experience. You worked for the 4-H?

Harlan Copeland:

Worked for the 4-H for two years in Kansas. Then I was awarded a fellowship to go to Washington, D.C., for a year, for a study program with the Department of Agriculture. Then I combined my graduate degree program at that time. Then I finished that and went back to Kansas to join the state 4-H staff. And then in 1960, the Federal Extension Service in Washington, D.C., offered me a position there. Which I think my program, the fellowship program -- being on -- had put me in those offices. So I went back there. And then did -- took time off to work on my PhD program. And left the Washington -- the U.S. Department of Agriculture in '68. Went to the University of Wisconsin, Madison, for a year, '68, '69.

Patricia Kuentz:

And that was to go to school or to teach?

Harlan Copeland:

No. I was on the faculty of the University of Wisconsin with a part-time academic appointment and a part-time extension appointment.

Patricia Kuentz:

Okay. And what department was it?

Harlan Copeland:

Department of Agricultural and the extension education, I think it was at that time. And then I was replacing a friend who had gone to Ireland on a Fulbright or something. But then those -- and that was the year there was demonstrations on campus. And a building was bombed, and somebody was killed. And the Legislature got very tough on funding for the university. So funding became tight, and funding for a possible position didn't materialize. So I had an opportunity to go to Syracuse, University in Syracuse, New York. And I went there in the fall of '69 and -- with the graduate program in adult education. And then had an opportunity to apply for the similar position here at the University of Minnesota. And came here, then, in essentially January of '74. Then retired in '95.

Patricia Kuentz:

And the department here that you were in?

Harlan Copeland:

Well, it was curriculum instruction at first. And then they moved us to the Vocational and Technical Education Department. And now they've changed the name to Work, Family, and Community Education. So --

Patricia Kuentz:

In another two years it'll be something different, I'm sure.

Harlan Copeland:

Could be, could be.

Patricia Kuentz:

We have to stay flexible.

Harlan Copeland:

Yeah. And that's where Ren (ph) and I were colleagues.

Patricia Kuentz:

Yeah, it clicked for me that --

Harlan Copeland:

And where Char (ph) did her program.

Patricia Kuentz:

That's right. So that's how you got to know her. Now this is kind of a bigger question. Thinking back, kind of reflecting, how would you say that your military experience effected your thinking about war or about the military in general?

Harlan Copeland:

Well, I don't think anyone -- I don't think anyone, even a professional military person, really wants war to solve our problems. I think it's -- I think maybe you see it as a necessary deterrent, you know, you kind of liken it to the bullies in school. There's always, I'm afraid, going to be bullies out there. If it were a perfect world, we wouldn't have to have a military. But it isn't a perfect world.

Patricia Kuentz:

Right.

Harlan Copeland:

And while I -- while I am glad that we have voluntarily armies and volunteer national guards and those. I can also understand that we have to have a draft where you don't have any choice. Because when a Hitler, you know, imposes his will on the rest of world, you have to, you know, you have to address that.

Patricia Kuentz:

Right.

Harlan Copeland:

So I -- and while I would rather resolve conflict by conversation and diplomatic issues, it just doesn't seem to be the way it works every time. I certainly wouldn't support the crusades as I understand them, and my history's pretty limited. But I'm much committed to a democratic form of government. Although I also, I think, because of the cultural sensitivity, don't feel that we have to impose our way on everybody. I kind of have a live and let live approach, as long as we're all acting with some degree of civility. But when an Osama Bin Ladin or somebody like that, then I think, you know, war or extreme force may have to be used. And I just hope that the people who are in the decision making places use those options wisely.

Patricia Kuentz:

Right..

Harlan Copeland:

You hear of a few people -- you hear this in the Army -- that, well, some of the careerists definitely want wars, so that's the way they get to become generals and all of those kind of things. And I suspect there's an element of that. But, you know, certainly the enlisted men -- most of the enlisted men that I served with, I don't think -- I think they would say it's a job like a firefighter or a policeman or something else. I'm there if needed for something, rather than as a -- well, this will be my stairway to fame, fortune, and whatever, you know.

Patricia Kuentz:

Yeah.

Harlan Copeland:

But so I don't have hard feelings about, you know, some of the officers, just like people in general are impossible to work with and people that you don't particularly care for. But that's true of people in general, so --

Patricia Kuentz:

That's right.

Harlan Copeland:

And so -- but anyway, that's a long-winded -- not a very concise answer. But I guess what I'm saying is, it may have to be an alternative that we keep our readiness to defend. I get a little concerned that we spend so much on the military budget. But, on the other hand, we're not fighting in trenches with M1 rifles anymore, either. And the so-called opposition isn't fighting with M1 rifles. And so, again, I just hope that our decision makers weigh the decisions very carefully. I often thought of Eisenhower's warning that we needed to watch out for the military industrial complex. And I'm inclined to agree with that. I think, you know, again, if I were the manufacturer of arms, I would want to get -- be able to manufacture arms and make money. So I think it's a tough row to hoe, you know, a tough line to walk. And it, you know -- so I don't know about speaking softly and carrying a big stick is the answer. But I don't think we can be bullied. I don't think that -- I don't want us to be bullies, but I don't think we can be tromped on, either. And we are in a very, very unique situation, a large country with a lot of resources, and a lot of know-how, and all of that. So I hope we don't abuse that privilege that we have. So that's kind of my view.

Patricia Kuentz:

That makes a lot of sense to me. One more global question.

Harlan Copeland:

Oh, okay.

Patricia Kuentz:

Slightly different twist. How do you think that the military service that you had, and those experiences with it, affected your life?

Harlan Copeland:

Well, they were positive. I mentioned -- well, I mentioned the GI Bill, I mentioned the cultural -- the travel to Europe which I kind of -- I was a little bit -- maybe not -- well, let's say bitter, a little bit bitter that I didn't get to have the international exchange experience. But living in Germany for ten months or so was certainly -- was a nice compensation, in a way, for that. If I'd spent all of my time in Camp Chaffee, Arkansas, I wouldn't have been so thrilled about it.

Patricia Kuentz:

Would have been a different experience.

Harlan Copeland:

True. My brother-in-law spent his military on Sheridan Avenue in New York -- in Chicago on Lake Shore -- on Lake Shore Drive. And he had -- then the trains were running, and he went down to Kansas every now and then on the train. So he had a totally different experience.

Patricia Kuentz:

Yeah.

Harlan Copeland:

But as I said, I'm glad that I've had the experience. You meet different kinds of people. So it helps you, I think, with the growing diversity of our population and appreciating different cultures within the United States. And it certainly improved my interest in world history and world affairs and that sort of thing. And I'm much more appreciating the ethnic contributions, I think, of this county, and want to see them continued. I kind of grew up with a melting pot idea. But I think the - while we do melt in some ways to form a cohesive nation, I don't want us to lose our ethnic riches that we have, from our different ethnic cultures and heritages. So I don't know, I might have gotten those ideas and insights other places, but the military certainly, you know, brought them on at an earlier age. And, you know, and so, as I said, it was a positive experience. And fortunately, I didn't have to point a gun at anybody or any bodies and pull the trigger. If I'd had to have done that, it would have been a very, very different experience. I'm not a hunter. And, you know, and so I don't think I would have enjoyed that experience at all. So I was lucky in that regard.

Patricia Kuentz:

It would have been much more difficult for you.

Harlan Copeland:

But I think the -- I think the showing our strength in Europe at the time, that we had to do that. I still think we had to stand up to the Russians. And so I think that was probably equally as important as standing up to the Chinese and North Koreans in North Korea. So it took a different form.

Patricia Kuentz:

Right, right. Well, one last question. And basically it's asking if there's anything that we didn't cover in the interview that you'd like to be on the tape about your military experience. It's okay if there isn't anything, but just in case.

Harlan Copeland:

Well, there -- I don't know that I have anything that would add to this point. It -- I guess not. I can't really think of anything that jumps out at me.

Patricia Kuentz:

All right, that sounds fine. Probably when you're having coffee, you'll think of something else.

Harlan Copeland:

Yeah, I might think of something else.

Patricia Kuentz:

Harlan, thanks so much for agreeing to participate in the Veterans History Project. It was good to see you again. It's been a long time. And also to hear your story. So thanks a lot.

Harlan Copeland:

Well, it's not as dramatic as some. I do hope you get to talk to Dick. I think his will be more like your spotter with the artillery. It'll be a little more life and death adventures and so on, and I didn't have that.

Patricia Kuentz:

Excitement is one thing, but I love talking to people who have what you would call, I don't know, a more ordinary experience. I mean, frankly, most people -- 90, percent -- have that kind of ordinary -- I don't know, ordinary's not the right word, but a not exciting, but I enjoy those interviews just as much as the others.

Harlan Copeland:

Like the peacetime Army experience because That's --

Patricia Kuentz:

It's a whole different thing.

Harlan Copeland:

It's a different story, you're right.

Patricia Kuentz:

Well, thanks so much, Harlan.