Interview with Senator James M. Jeffords [July 25, 2003]

David Winkler:

Good morning. I'm Dave Winkler with the Naval Historical Foundation and in conjunction with the Library of Congress Veteran's History Program I'm here this morning with Senator James M. Jeffords of Vermont. This morning we're going to be talking about his career in the Navy as an active duty officer, and then as a Reservist; a time spanning over 30 years. So Senator, thank you for being with us this morning. I'd like to just start off and talk a little bit about you growing up, and obviously you experienced World War II at a young age. How did that influence your decision to eventually join the Service?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Well there's no question Vermont itself is an example of courage and pride. I think we have more Medal of Honor winners per capita than any other State and we've been involved in all the wars, and the heroes - generally the top ones - Vermont's usually up in there. So it's a brave history in Vermont, so we're all proud of it and proud to be a part of it.

So I grew up on a street which - I was bom in 1934 - so by the time I was six we were into World War II and thus I became acquainted relatively soon with war on that street. The man that lived across the street was the general in charge of our National Guard in Vermont and he ended up with the 43d Division, and then they ended up going on to being the ones that liberated the Philippines. He was a pen pal of mine and my father and he were the closest of friends, and law partners and all. So my father would write him and he would write back, and he'd always hand a little note to me and I'd always pen a little note to him. So I had a real connection there. Then on the other side of me, during World War II, was a P-51 pilot. Hugh McCloud was his name and he ended up being in the Battle of the Bulge and briefly captured but escaped. Then the general's son was over in World War II, over in Europe also, and he ended up being captured and escaped in a bizarre escape situation. I think he ended up crawling out of a barn underneath the pigs and so he was able to get out and escape to the Russians and come back. So all these stories came home to us and we used to listen to them as well as understand the brutality of war.

David Winkler:

Okay. Now you mentioned a couple of individuals who inspired you who were Air Corps and Army. Of course you're from Vermont, which last I saw was not a coastal state, so how did you wind up in the Navy?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Well a number of reasons. But one of them ... also a good fhend of my father's and a World War II Veteran too was Bob Stafford who I succeeded in the House and then succeeded in the Senate. He was a captain in the Navy and had served in a wartime situation as well, and so my friendship with him kind of got me Navy oriented. But the biggest reason of course was that you could get a free college education and that was very tempting, not only to me, but my father. He was chief justice of the Vermont Supreme Court but his salary at that time was the same as my sister's tuition. And so the thought of sending somebody to Yale was a little bit daunting. So I don't know where I would have ended up. But fortunately I won the NROTC scholarship for the state of Vermont and I was able to go to the Navy that way, although I almost didn't make it in that sense because the Korean War started about that time. I had been told that it would be a good idea to get into the National Guard. So I went down and signed up for the National Guard and then the Korean War started, and the next thing I knew they were about to nationalize our Guard band. I played in the band. So suddenly that didn't seem as exciting as it might have been. But at the same time that happen my award came through to go to the Navy and so I ducked out of going into the Infantry and went onto the NROTC at Yale.

David Winkler:

Okay. I was an NROTC midshipman at Penn State and one of the annual rituals is the Summer Cruise. Could you discuss your three summers?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Sure will. The first one was the very interesting one. We went down to South America. Of course the Navy picks places to go where they want to impress the other countries with us and all, and at that time it was interested in visiting the South America nations. But we had a cruise and I got onboard a little DE, which if you want to learn the Navy from the bottom up, I guess you get on a DE in rough weather. So if you've been on one of those it was a nice little ship. But we got down there and we were also down there to try and improve relationships with Central and South America. We were stopping off and we stopped in Columbia and then we went to Rio de Janeiro. And wow, that was wonderful to go down to. We also went through ... of course we also went across the equator. So we had all the mysteries of crossing the equator, so that was an exciting time.

Then we went into Brazil and we were there to try and make fhends and improve our relationships for there. So we ended up going ... one of the activities we had was to go and stay with a group of young women who were ... and it was our 4th of July. So we were there and they told us to make friends with the girls and that was fine. Well then the Brazilians decided that they were going to have a midnight party because the 4th of July was midnight. So not being too knowledgeable about the rules of the Navy, but thinking the Navy must be very generous in wanting to establish good relations with Brazil, a number of us decided that we would not go back at curfew and didn't want to irritate the Brazilians, so we stayed. Well that was an interesting experience because I got back, but my buddy who was with me, he went back. But when I went back the first thing I know I'm under arrest (laughter) and was before Captain's Mast the next morning. The charge was a Class "A" offense, and good Lord, I mean, God, I was just trying to do public relations but it ended in a Captain's Mast. But finally the Upper Classmen from the ship across the way who had been with us came over and said, no, let him go.

But a little fast-forward on this little experience. When I came at the end of my first year we all rushed up to see how we did on our grades and whether we were promoted, and the first thing I see is J. M. Jeffords; disenrolled. I said, oh my God! They must have found out about my thing, and I was tenified. So I went and said, oh my God, what do I do? And this fellow said, did you read all of that? That was J. M. Jeffords; University of Virginia.

David Winkler:

Oh!

Senator James M. Jeffords:

And one: there aren't many Jeffords in the whole world.

David Winkler:

Right.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

But to have a J. M. Jeffords who happened to be in college and the NROTC at the same time, I thought for sure I'd been thrown out of the Navy. So that was a little anecdote that I'll never forget; the terror of suddenly thinking I was out of the Navy.

David Winkler:

Obviously the black sheep of the familly.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Yeah, right. (Laughter) So I had an interesting start. But I enjoyed it very much at Yale; the NROTC. Of course it meant the difference between me going to college or not. Because my father couldn't afford it any other way so that was very, very helpful.

David Winkler:

Now did your First Class Cruise ... you wound up as a Surface Officer?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Right.

David Winkler:

Talking to Senator Harkin, I think his experience on the ships; destroyer escorts, convinced him to go Aviation, but you decided to be a Gunnery Officer; what's now called a Surface Warfare Officer.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Right.

David Winkler:

And how did you go about that process of making that choice?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Well the choice was made for me I guess. We came onboard ship - a number of us did - and it was just going onboard the ship which was an exciting experience in itself I'll get into that a little bit. I had my orders to go down and report to Newport. So I went to Newport and my ship was the third one out and so I had to go across two destroyers to get there. When I got to step onboard there was a knife fight going on at the quarterdeck and two guys were going at it with knives. Finally, of course, the MPs or whatever came rushing out and I remember this was my first meeting with the Officer-in-Charge of the ship at that time who was Tom Harvin (phonetic). He took a piece of chalk and walked over and drew a chalk line down across the quarterdeck and said, "you stay on that side and you stay on that side", and so they dragged them both away. Well I had some questions of what kind of a ship I was getting onboard.

Well this was exacerbated a little bit when I got to the wardroom and the steward was there - this was about nine, ten o'clock at night I guess - and I said Chief, could I get a cup of coffee? The steward said, "fix it for yourself. We don't fix coffee for you juniors." And I said, whew, this doesn't sound like the Navy I was expecting. Then I went downstairs and found a little bit further misunderstanding of what I thought the Navy was. One of the junior officers was there and he said, "oh you'll get used to this ship" he said. "You know," he said, "we've got about the worst ship in the United States Navy". Then he said, "come on into my little place here and we'll have a shot", and I'm thinking, wait a minute. You don't have alcohol onboard ships. And so he's like ... yeah, I'll have a gin and tonic.

David Winkler:

Okay.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

I'm like, God; I'm wondering what's going on. Well it proved we were the worst ship I think in the Atlantic Fleet, at least if not the whole Navy. But they threw all the officers off. That's why we were coming. So a whole bunch of new officers came aboard. The former quarterback of the Naval Academy came on and he was our Captain and then we had a Mustang that was a wonderful guy that came on. So we ended up though with espirit de corps and they ended up winning the Squadron "E" by the time we went through in two years. So that was seeing the Navy from its worst and right up through to see it's best, and then of course we did have some interesting experiences.

David Winkler:

Okay. Well that's one of the things; you had a change over in the Wardroom, and how about amongst the enlisted? Did you have a Chief who kind of broke you in?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Yes, right, a wonderful Chief who was the Gunnery Chief and he really was wonderful. And another one was Melzer (phonetic) who was the ASW; Anti- Submarine Warfare Officer, and I was designated the ASW Officer. So I worked with him and he was also a good hunter too; he had some good hunting experiences. So we won the "E" and we did the best in ASW. We were the ASW ship for the squadron and so ... and with the officers we had, most of them ... some from the Academy and off the Ivy League at Harvard and Yale and Princeton and Columbia, all came onboard.

David Winkler:

Sounds like a good wardroom.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Yeah, it was a wonderful bunch; an aspiring group.

David Winkler:

Did the Navy send you through Gunnery School like at Dam Neck or someplace before you reported aboard?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Yes, right, it was in, I think Newport at the time.

David Winkler:

Okay.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

And also ASW school. I went down to Key West and spent several months there.

David Winkler:

Okay. Now of course the ship you're talking about is the McNair.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Right.

David Winkler:

Could you discuss a little bit ... as I understand, it's a Fletcher Class World War II vintage destroyer? Any other discussion about the characteristics of this ship?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Well they were old and it takes a lot of hard work to keep them up to snuff, but the crews make the ship and just getting a good commanding officer and the exec that we had ... Tom Harvin (phonetic) was just a wonderful man. He was a Mustang but he made the ship. He brought the ship together. And Wes Gabard (phonetic) who was Captain, was also the Navy quarterdeck, so he obviously had some prestige and respect, except we had to watch the same football game over and over again, but outside of that he was very good.

David Winkler:

Now while you were onboard you made two Med deployments and each of them significant in its own way. Could you discuss each of those deployments?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Yes. First of all we were designated the ASW ship and so we did a lot of patrolling when we went over. But this was Cold War stuff and so we were stalking Soviet submarines and we had ... I was ASW officer and we had great sonarmen. So we were the number one ASW ship in the squadron and we were the ones that were picked on, so we ended up in some interesting ... tailing Soviet submarines and doing the Cold War duties.

Then we had the interesting experience of also being designated as the first ship through the Suez Canal after the Canal reopened and that gave us a very interesting taste of, well I think the first thing we discovered is how much we felt we were the greatest country in the world and everybody should love us. When we were designated to be the first ship to go through the Suez Canal we thought people would be cheering.

David Winkler:

WINKLER:Uhhum.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Well gosh, we pulled into Sa'id and we were ready to go through the Canal and all of a sudden mobs arrived. There were two kinds of the mobs: one's trying to sell camel saddles and the other is screaming and yelling, "go home. Get out of our Canal", and we're saying, wait a minute. We opened it for you. We're giving it back to you. It didn't seem to have much effect. So we had fire hoses out and so our first display of trying to ease the relationships with nations was hosing down people to keep them off the ship, and that was the interesting realization of what the situation was. Also I had an interesting experience at that time because I was also already selected for Harvard Law School so I was made the Legal Officer on the ship.

David Winkler:

Okay.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

So I had that duty. Well the first thing I had to do in Sa'id there was, they came; the Shore Patrol came and said, "we've got a terrible situation down here. This young kid stole a Seaman's knife and the Seaman wants him prosecuted, and the local police down there asked if somebody could come down and talk him out of that because the guy is going to lose his arm." This was the first time I got ... you lose your left wrist your first steal. You lose your right wrist the next steal, and the third steal they hang you if you can steal with no hands I guess. So I had to go down and negotiate with the Seaman who was obviously drunk. So I spent the night with him until he sobered up and finally convinced him that really he ought not to charge him; that they'll take care of him in a normal fashion, but don't, because they'll have to cut his wrist off. So that was a total culture shock once you get into these experiences.

We did though manage to go down through the Canal and then that was also interesting too. We had the ... our sleuths were onboard to take pictures and all. We had a, the pilot, he would keep whispering to us, "tell them there is a much better shot around the comer". They were trying to walk around like they were members and of course the pilot could see that and he said, "no, that's a bad picture". He waved around the comer. So that was interesting.

David Winkler:

The pilot was Egyptian, wasn't he?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Yes.

David Winkler:

Of course the background to your situation is, is that France and Great Britain and Israel had invaded in October 1956 to try to seize the Canal.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Right.

David Winkler:

And the United States under President Eisenhower said, no, and brought a halt to the hostilities, and of course we helped open the Canal.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

You know we were the ones that did the opening and in that instance we opened it up.

David Winkler:

Yeah.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

So your information is expanding my knowledge. I'd forgotten about the President's involvement in that; in trying to make sure the Canal stayed open and we were the ones that made that possible.

David Winkler:

On the other side of the Canal did you make any port visits?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Oh yes. We went ... those are all eye opening experiences for young men when you travel to go into different ports, and we had some pretty sad examples of how the cultures, when they mix, can get out of control. Our biggest problem was trying to convince the young Seamen that all these young ladies that were on the beach were not up for grabs, and a couple of times they did grab in the wrong places and ended up ... I was also the ... because of my going to Law School I was going to be the one that went over and negotiated each time to get these kids out and try to save them from going to jail forever and, boy, it was a hard thing to do. And also to get them to understand that you just can't go up and grab a young lady and think that they're going to be excited to be with you. So it was a real growing experience and our cultures have a hard time assimilating with each other in understanding those matters.

David Winkler:

Okay. Are there any other highlights of that first cruise you would Me to touch on?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

On the first cruise, yes. We did have some opportunities to be semi- wartime; in getting messages to ... that Soviet submarines were seen in these areas or that area and that we went in to try to sweep and to cover them. I know one time we did tag onto one and we spent many hours, many days, tracing a Soviet sub and to try to get all the kinds of information we could from their sounds and all; from sonar tracking and things.

David Winkler:

As an ASW Officer that probably was like one of the most exciting time periods on that ship; having a ... tracking one of those, I guess at that time it was a Whiskey class Soviet boat?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

EFFORDS: Yes it was, and it brought you right with reality, and of course the Cold War was pretty cold. But when you were out there traipsing around and knowing that at any time there could be a torpedo coming, that made things quite realistic and you really listened carefully.

David Winkler:

Okay. You come back to Newport, which at that time was a pretty booming Navy town, and you probably did some workups and short deployments to the North Atlantic, then you go back to the Mediterranean. Could you talk a little bit about that?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Yes. We had many opportunities. They really sailed the ships in those days as you know. We just ... we were at sea all the time and we had some interesting hurricane experiences, and if you've ever wanted to be in a lively situation you get into a good hurricane on one of those ships. I'll tell you, you really treasure your life. You're hanging onto your bunk and you can't even stay in it with the bucking up and down. It's was a pretty harrowing experience. But probably even more harrowing than that was we had our second in command who was not the most admired naval officer you might ever meet. He was really pretty bad. The third in command really ran the ship. But we were in a speed run one time, going and trying ... three or four ships abreast all trying to see who was the fastest ship. So our Executive Officer was checking the ship going down below and he got back into After Steering and he said, "don't you realize ORDALT 99-1 says that this pin is supposed to be removed and this other pin. . ." So he pulled the pin out and of course that put us into a fall right turn, and so we're going 33 knots and in a full right turn. Then of course you had to have a tanker up there or the scene wouldn't have been perfect for sure. We came right up and we just went right around the tail of that tanker before we could get it under control. So there were some exciting experiences unrelated to war.

David Winkler:

Uh hum. Now you didn't have the Conn at the time did you?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

No, I did not, no.(Laughter)

David Winkler:

Okay. Well I imagine you probably qualified on that ship as Officer of the Deck in a very short time.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Yes, and for whatever reasons I was the Officer of the Deck at General Quarters, which was an honor.

David Winkler:

Okay. How about during Underway Replenishments?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Yes, oh yes, those are of course always exciting we had our experiences with those. But a more humorous one I guess was when you take the families out on your cruise to show how wonderful you are and how safe it would be if your person falls overboard. And since I was the designated expert in that one, why, we had the families out there and so we went out and Charlie I think is what we called the ...

David Winkler:

Is it Oscar or Charlie?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Oscar, yes, it was Oscar. So sure enough they throw Oscar off and I'm at the helm, and so I come roaring around and very proud thinking I can do this real well. Well the first thing I do is come to Oscar and Oscar is spread eagle, so I hit him with the bow right in the crotch and you could imagine the Seamen all-screaming, Yeaaa, you know. Then of course Oscar drifts down the side and I put it in full reverse and of course then I ground Oscar up in the screws. So it was a great day for the crew but it was not very good for the parents.

David Winkler:

That takes some skill to do that.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

It did; perfection. Sometimes not as good ...

David Winkler:

Now you head over to the Mediterranean for a second time ...

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Right.

David Winkler:

... and this time you're involved in the Lebanon Crisis of '58.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Right.

David Winkler:

Could you discuss a little bit about that?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Yeah, that of course was scary. This is war and all of a sudden you realize that you are ... that apparently the Communists were going to come in and try to take over Lebanon, and we were, again, we had the senior captain designated as the lead ship. So we received orders to proceed into the Straits to get over there and also we'd had word at the same time that there was evidence that the Lebanon Air Force was defecting to the Communist, and so we should be aware. So we went ... then we had orders to go down and through the Straits and to pick up a ... before we got into Lebanon, to Beirut, we had orders to meet with the State Department and they flew in and we were to be the ship for the different governments to come onboard and to negotiate and all, so that was an honor to be that way. So then after we had taken care of those we started to transit into Lebanon.

And so we were at wartime and of course we'd heard that this Air Force may have been at fault itself. We were going along and I was Officer of the Deck, and I was there of course up listening to the phones and also with my binoculars, and finally we ... there was an airplane sighted and so I went out and I got my binocs on and I could see the airplane—and then everybody's at General Quarters—and I said, oh look, he dropped something. I turned around and everybody's flat on the deck and even the helmsman's down behind ... and here I am watching him. I said, oh, it's just a flare. And so ... what I thought was a stupid reaction. So I knew at that point in wartime that I'd either be a real hero or dead in the first 30 seconds, and more likely the latter. But those experiences you never forget. And then another humorous—and that's a humorous one—was coming in. We came in and we were looking up at the shore and I could see these 9-inch guns; huge guns pointing right at us from three different places. So I said, get a hold of the Command on the line and find out whether these are friendly or not. We got the worst of all answers: what guns?

David Winkler:

Oh!

Senator James M. Jeffords:

So we knew our intelligence was not, shall we say, up to par. They're sitting up there just staring at us. But as it turned out of course nothing really happened.

David Winkler:

Okay, and of course they landed the Marines.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Yeah, the Marines landed and that was another interesting thing, because the Marines - and everybody's on shore. We're all in combat - and so we have all of our lookouts out there and all terrain supposedly on the mountains. But we also had all these French girls in bikinis water skiing and our biggest problem was keeping the binoculars on the guns and away from the water skiers. But if that's your biggest challenge, you know, you're not in too bad a shape.

David Winkler:

No. So that situation ended peacefully?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Peacefully, yeah.

David Winkler:

And it worked out?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

It worked out, yeah.

David Winkler:

Any other highlights from that deployment worth noting?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

I feel pride for the capacity of our Navy and Air Force that worked together and the coordination we had, and the training we had to keep track of the air as well as our carrier planes and all. And it really inspired you to see the reaction of your men under combat and how proud you would be in knowing that they were really top notch. They knew their jobs and the officer corps was wonderful, and the Mustangs in particular. So your pride just really grew.

David Winkler:

Now you go off active duty, and you already answered the question because you were going to Law School at Harvard. That was a great opportunity.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Yes.

David Winkler:

So leaving active duty did you immediately affiliate with the Reserves?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Yes I did. I wanted to stay in the Reserves and there was some advantage to it. Of course you got the money, and my dad was Chief Justice of the Vermont Supreme Court but his salary was not much and with my sister in college and all he didn't have too much. So you just had to try to do the best you could in those circumstances.

David Winkler:

So in our few remaining minutes could you take me through your Reserve career?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Oh I had a wonderful time. Being since I got in, of course, into Congress, and the Navy takes good care of its members of Congress I found.

David Winkler:

Yes.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

So I had the opportunity to really learn and do some wonderful things all the way from going to the South Pole and to understand what the Navy does there, to getting onboard different ships and carriers. I was on the carrier that was there when the hostages were released in the seas at that time and almost there when they were released, but very close to that time, and playing nose-to-nose with the Soviets and the games that they played at the same time with just trying to egg us on and playing chicken, and all those things. It really brought a reality to the Cold War that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise. Plus just the experience of traveling, and I had some horrible experiences too. I was going to be with the Military attaché in Paris. He was assassinated on Wednesday and I arrived to be with him on Thursday. So I go to meet my attaché and they're all walking out to the funeral, and so that brought to mind that the Cold War was, for some, a very real event.

David Winkler:

Okay. Early on I noted that during Vietnam you performed, I guess was what we call CACO duties.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Yes.

David Winkler:

Can you talk a little bit about casualty calls?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Yeah. My heart went out for the Vietnam veterans and for those fighting in Vietnam because it was a war that was not a favorable one. The public was angry and all. But I had the job of notifying a family of the death of their son. The one I remember the most was a young man named Dexter and he was in Rutland. I went to the family and they were, of course, very, very teary at that. But they read to me a letter that he had written and he was a conscientious objector, and he told what he was doing most of the time was taking care of young children who were wounded because of the ... of the indigenous people there. And just to see the dedication that young man had, who was a conscientious objector, to the cause of helping these people out, and then to have to notify the family that just ... boy, that's something you don't want to do very often. And you got to understand the Vietnam War just much better.

David Winkler:

WINKLER:Uhhum. Any other notes? Well during that era, that was before you got into, I guess into Vermont politics.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Right.

David Winkler:

And so you were probably doing some Reserve duties beside CACO. What were some of the other things you were doing at that time?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Well I went sometimes, well especially when I was in Congress; I got to go about anywhere I wanted to go.

David Winkler:

Okay.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

But it was also ... the thing I did most during that, which I'm proudest of and was related, was to create the Vietnam Veteran's of America. Number one was my town; Rutland, Vermont was the first veteran's, and I think having the job of notifying the families of death, things like that, made me aware of how serious it was of morale in all of the Vietnam veterans. I've been thinking of many people saying, "well you wasted your time over there. It was a stupid war". But to be involved in it and to have been dedicated and then to ... we had the hardest time to get the veterans to get together. We couldn't. . . so I finally as the Attorney General at the time I got the ... I asked the Legion and the VFW and all if they would come and meet with the Vietnam veterans. They wouldn't invite them into their ... they wouldn't even consider it a war.

That was a horrible time but we were able to do that. I got them all to come to the one place and then that's when I decided that a couple of the vets in Rutland, my hometown, said they wanted to start up a national organization. So that was probably one of the best things I ever did, although it was mostly from the other's efforts, but I was the one that helped pull it together to create the Vietnam Veterans Organization. So it was all part of my Navy duty.

David Winkler:

Excellent. Of course as first, State Congressman and then Senator, the final question is, your Navy experience; how has that helped you as a lawmaker?

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Oh I think first of all you notice how many Veterans and fellows you may have served with that are also in the Congress, so you get a certain espirit de corps there. But it also trains you in how to, under difficult circumstances, to negotiate to work together. So I think that those experiences make it much easier for you to be a good member of Congress and understand the needs, especially of the men and women that serve.

David Winkler:

Okay. Well I think that's all I have for today. I appreciate your time and thank you again on behalf of the Veteran's History Project, The Library of Congress, and of course the Naval Historical Foundation.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

It's been a pleasure.

David Winkler:

Thank you.

Senator James M. Jeffords:

Thank you.