Interview with Joseph Pernice [November 20, 2001]

John Winter:

This is John Winter. And we are with Joseph Pernice. This interview is taking place on November 20, 2001 at the Alexander Hughes Community Center in Claremont, California. Mr. Pernice currently resides at 1452 Wells Avenue in Claremont and was born on April 1, 1920. He served in the Army during World War II. Now we will begin. Okay, I have to think down through here. Now were you drafted or did you enlist?

Joseph Pernice:

No, I was drafted.

John Winter:

You were drafted. Okay, uh-huh. And where were you living at the time?

Joseph Pernice:

I was living in Brooklyn, New York, actually, Queens part of New York

John Winter:

Why did you choose to go into the Army, or did you choose to go into the Army?

Joseph Pernice:

I didn't have any choice.

John Winter:

You didn't have a choice. Yeah.

Joseph Pernice:

They just took people and put them in the infantry by bunches.

John Winter:

Do you recall anything about your first few days in service, what it felt like?

Joseph Pernice:

Uh, well first few days of service is very hectic. And you were -- you're transported -- I think at that time it was Camp Upton, New York I trained. And you're greeted by a first sergeant or so, tells you what's expected. You're marched into a building and you're issued clothing which you dump into a barrack bag, and you're escorted to a barrack. You're assigned a bed with blankets, so forth, but not very much on the first day. You do get the first meal there at Camp Upton in the evening which you can't complain about food; food is very good. First day is uneventful, really. Second day you're wearing a uniform for the first time. You're apprehensive a little bit, I suppose. I can't say I was thrilled, but it was something I had to do and I just went along with it. You just -- possibly that first week you ____ into the company, you formed a company. You were assigned to a platoon, told who your sergeant was and who the corporals were and that's about all, really. You got your first taste of kitchen duty the first week. You were assigned -- I don't know how they assigned us. I guess each sergeant in the platoon, he had three platoon sergeants and each group was assigned duties, probably for the week. You're assigned to KP. You tied -- you tied your towel at the post of the bed and the first sergeant, the sergeant in charge of the -- in charge of the platoon awoke you about five, 5:30 and walked you over to the mess hall and then you started. I can't really remember what my first day or first what I did. I think -- I think I was assigned scrubbing pots and pans that first KP duty there. That's about all, really. With the first week is just getting used to the Army life and then the second -- second week you start in earnest close order drill. You're assigned to a -- oh, what is it -- you were assigned to a sergeant who was in charge of a platoon of men, and each platoon had a corporal in charge of a squad. You had some A squads to the platoon, so you knew who you're going to be working with; and after that it was just close order drill, I don't know, and going on a rifle range, getting used to firing your rifle. A lot of exercise in the morning. In the morning first at reveille you fall out and they call up the names, make sure everybody was there; and then you went to calisthenics; and then you went to breakfast, if you weren't on KP, and after breakfast you'd fall out again.

John Winter:

What's that?

Joseph Pernice:

Helmets and rifles and marched to a training area and you'd go through the paces there. And then that -- after that it's just habit, force of habit; you know, reveille at 5:30, six o'clock you're out and getting ready to go to breakfast. After breakfast it's the calisthenics, so forth. That's about all it was, really.

John Winter:

Where -- where exactly did you go in your service?

Joseph Pernice:

Where? First -- you mean stateside?

John Winter:

In Europe, I guess.

Joseph Pernice:

In Europe? Well, I invited my -- I was first went into service with the Yankee Division which is a Massachusetts National Guard outfit, and I was with them for over two years until about , early '44 when the Army started filling up old National Guard regiments for duty overseas. So I was transferred from the Yankee Division to the 30th Division which was an old Tennessee National Guard outfit which was Andrew Jackson's division that he was commander of, I guess it was. And then we did our same thing, training with your rifles, you know, basic training. By this time we were pretty well basic trained, and now we were really training in earnest hardening us up, of course there's a lot of 25-, 30-mile hikes full pack dead night maneuvers. Let me see. By this time it was -- no, it was late '42, as a matter of fact, I -- by this time I married a young lady and we trained in camp -- oh, was it McLellan in Georgia, we trained. We trained landing in Florida. And by this time I was already assigned, like I said, to the first battalion of the 30th Division which comprised of the 117th, the 119th and the 120th infantry regiment. So I was the th regiment. I was assigned to company headquarters because I had -- I had worked for Time Life magazine while I was a civilian, and I learned to use typewriters, copy machines and stuff like that. So I was very helpful in the office. I wasn't the company clerk but I was assistant to the company clerk. But this was just on weekends when the company clerk wasn't in or something. My job in the company -- what was it, the -- oh, company headquarters is what it was. My job in company headquarters was as -- to be used as an interpreter because I had a background of Italian and French ancestry. I was also an infantryman trained, but I was the radio man for the captain. I accompanied the captain wherever he went with a portable radio, and I was available to him to send messages to whomsoever he wanted, need be. In January -- in January, I am trying to remember -- yes, we did. February, in February of , I believe it was, '43 -- February '43, the division was alerted to go overseas and we sailed on February -- February the 12th out of New York aboard the S.S. Brazil headed for Europe. We docked the following month -- I'm trying to remember. Was that south -- southern part of England. It was -- God, I'm trying to remember it. All ___ fully loaded I went on the Brazil. We left Boston Harbor and it took us about 10 days to get across. And we were, if I'm remembering correct, trying to remember, I'll have the information in a minute. The 120th landed in McClyden (ph) -- no, the 119th, we landed at Bristol in England was on the channel coast and we were billeted there and did our training there. We were billeted in homes of the people that lived there that were taken by the English Army. As a matter of fact, we -- British soldiers had billeted in the home that I was assigned to and they moved out, we moved in. I moved in with company headquarters. We were maybe four, five men to this house amidst the civilians. So we lived amongst the civilians who, by the way, were very, very nice to us. We were billeted in the channel town, was the name Chalfont St. Giles, and we had neighbors across the street who was a retired Navy captain. He and his wife were very good to us. She'd make cookies for us, and I don't know how she could afford it. They had very, very few rations but they did. English people were very good for us. Actually, we were waiting for D-day. We knew it was coming. And every week we would move from one -- one place in England to another place in England, closer, closer to the embarkation points. The 30th Division embarked from -- I don't know where along the coast aboard a British freighter, at least our regiment did. We were split up, God knows, how many boats. We embarked around -- well, let me see, the 10th, the 10th of July -- the 10th of June. Four days after the D landing -- the D-Day landing. We were proceeded by the 29th Division who did the initial landings on Omaha beachhead. We were aboard ship in the channel waiting for them to clean up the beach before we could hit the beach. We hit the beach on June 13th, the Normandy beachhead, Utah beach. It was uneventful. We marched into the first town and that was Assigny, France, and we got our first baptism of fire there in hedge row country. It was uneventful. My service lasted, ha, ha, in the Normandy countryside til July the 4th, fighting, trying to get into St. Lo. I was wounded just before St. Lo. We were going to take St. Lo and it took almost two armies to take St. Lo. Anyway, I was wounded in St. Lo and evacuated to a beach hospital and flown to England. Here again, I don't know where we were because you never knew where you were. I was flown to a hospital in England, treated for first and second degree burns. I had all my clothes blown off and I was burned. So that took care of me for about four months. That took care of July, August, September, October, November because -- part of November I was well enough to be moved, so I asked to be sent back to my original company. By the time I got back to my original company, and that was December something, I don't remember exactly when, I rejoined my 119th infantry regiment in Bostwick, Holland, just in time for the Battle of the Bulge. I returned to the company. There were very few, if anybody left of the original company. There was one Chafe Taylor (ph) lieutenant I remember. There were -- he and I became very friendly before I was wounded. He was still there, but by this time he was a captain. And I said, "What are you going to do with me? You know, what am I going to do?" He said, "I have a job for you. You're going to be supply sergeant." Why supply sergeant? How many have you lost so far?" "We've lost three." I said, "Thank you." Anyway, I went through the Battle of the Bulge, I think, as a supply sergeant, and a supply sergeant travels around at night bringing up ammunition, supplies. You're traveling in the dark with a driver. I remember one time in the Ardennes we were now way into Germany by this time. I fought through Holland and Belgium and into Ardennes waiting for a breakthrough, and I was traveling down the road in complete darkness. I had tanks on both sides of this road, going through the Ardennes forest. They were hidden amongst the trees. It was a moonlit night, and I told my chief driver to be wary because they did have airplanes flying over would spot us. They did. And this one night an airplane spotted us and dove for us and we just split, dropped -- left the jeep in the middle of the road and hit the ditches on the side of the road. That's as close as I came to getting killed for the second time. After that it was just a series of river crossings. The river, Ruhr River and so forth, before we finally hit the town right before the Ruhr River. We sat there and waited for the Russians to take Berlin. And we were more or less on occupation duty, really, until the Germans took Berlin. By this time here it was September, October of '45, something like that. I was just, as a supply sergeant, had a lot of work to do, get our stuff packed, get it shipped aboard ship, and I think we were headed for Japan when the atom bomb was dropped. We were aboard ship. The atom bomb was dropped and the ship changed course and headed for New York Harbor where I was discharged in October of '45. So I saw a lot of fighting but, thank God, my infantry days were over. Supply sergeant was hard enough, but not as difficult as the boys walking around in the snow. That's my story. The good lord was very good to me, saved my life by having me wounded and going back in again as a supply sergeant

John Winter:

I think, in your words, the Combat Infantry Badge, Purple Heart, how did you get those? How did you get those awards?

Joseph Pernice:

The Purple Heart? Well, I was wounded there just before St. Lo. I was part of a bazooka team, and I believe I loaded the bazooka and another one of the boys was kneeling holding the bazooka, getting ready to fire at a half track, a German half-track, and the shell landed nearby as a fluke; shell landed nearby, shrapnel flowing around hit the bazooka causing to pull the trigger on the bazooka and, ha, the rocket left his hand. I was back of it so it blew my clothes off, burned me. I had very little shrapnel. The boy behind me went blind from the blast. I was evacuated to the beach hospital on Omaha beachhead, as I said. I was awarded the Purple Heart there, and then flown to England where I was there for about four months until December, and then went back and joined in Holland as a supply sergeant after that.

John Winter:

How did you get the combat infantry badge?

Joseph Pernice:

Well, I was a combat infantryman from the time I hit the beach on July -- June -- June 13th to the 4th of July. I was wounded on the 4th of July, so I was awarded a Combat Infantryman Badge. And all the medals -- all the service medals that go along with it, you know, the Purple Heart and I had a little Bronze Star, Good Conduct, you name them. The European Theater of Operations. Do you want the names of the awards that come? I was awarded the European African Middle Eastern Service Medal, Good Conduct Medal and the Purple Heart, according to the 119th infantry, General Order Six Headquarters on June '45, Purple Heart General Eight Headquarters 30th station hospital 4 August 1944. I was discharged at the convenience of the government in October '45. So my battle -- by battle days were cut by my being wounded and, thank the good lord, I made it through the Battle of the Bulge without too much -- too much trouble. I didn't say it was a breeze. You're bringing up hot food when you can ___ + ___ very, very infrequently, especially during the Battle of the Bulge we moved very, very fast. That's about all, really. I can't say I was a big hero, but I did what I had to do.

John Winter:

How did you stay in touch with family and other people in the States, while you were over there?

Joseph Pernice:

Well, when we were in England, we kept in touch via E-mail. We wrote letters which were then photographed, I guess, and sent back to the States. I guess they were put on tape or something, then run off and they'd get an E-mail. Well, our mail was censored, especially in those days before June the 6th. Didn't want anything to leak out. I know my wife at that time was getting letters with things, ha, cut out. You couldn't tell them where you were.

John Winter:

What did people do for entertainment over there?

Joseph Pernice:

In England?

John Winter:

Or anywhere, yeah.

Joseph Pernice:

In England? Well, you had the pub on Saturday. You were off Saturday and Sunday. You'd get a pass to leave camp. Not everybody left camp. Somebody had -- they -- you got a chance to go into the small towns and go to a pub which was a bar and sat down and played some game of Chemin de Fer. Not too much to do in those small towns, really. They had something like dance halls; you get a chance to go, they'd send trucks for us, and we'd go to one of the village -- I don't know what they were. I guess they were meeting halls of some kind, and we'd meet young ladies, and we'd dance, and then we would take them back to camp again in the evening. Not very much to do. It was a lot of work being down in training, never stopped training.

John Winter:

You told me about your discharge. What did you do on the days and weeks after that?

Joseph Pernice:

After I was discharged?

John Winter:

Yeah.

Joseph Pernice:

Well, after I was discharged, I went back to get my -- my old job. When I was -- when I was drafted into the service I was working for Time and Life magazine as a -- in the mail room, and I went back and the first thing they said, Well, we owe you a job. You were making 20 dollars a week. Twenty dollars, here I was a married man and I had a wife to support. I went back for a job and by that time -- let me see, what did I do? I went to work for Blue Cross of New York Associated Hospital Services New York. I went to work for them. Meanwhile, I was going to college at night. I was going to St. John's University in Brooklyn, New York. And let me see. I was a claims examiner, stayed with them for about 10 -- 10 years. I moved up and became a claims department supervisor until about, oh, I'd say, in the '50s. Probably around '55, something like that, we decided to move out of New York and we moved to California. By this time I had two children, two boys, and I settled in Anaheim. We had a home in Anaheim and I worked for -- I got a transfer from Blue Cross of New York to Blue Cross of California, and I went in -- I was working in Hollywood. Worked for them for about three, four years, but the pay scale was very, very low. I decided I'd have to change and I did. I went into electronics, studied at night, went into school at night. In the interim, I decided to move, like I say, get out of there, I went to North American Aviation. I got a job at North American Aviation as a balancer. I had a friend of mine that taught me the intricacies of balancing moving -- moving parts. So I went to work for North America as a balancer, and I balanced the big fans that go into the jet engines. And I stayed with them and went steadily up the ladder. I went to McDonnel Douglas when Rockwell -- when Rockwell bought North American, I worked for Rockwell. Then Rockwell was purchased by Boeing. I ended up at Boeing this time -- and by this time I was a supervisor in engineering department and I had a group of associate engineers. We programmed checkout for electrical systems. And I worked on quite a few of the projects, those ground to air missiles, I worked on the -- what was it now? Boeing at this time and McDonnel Douglas -- no, McDonnel Douglas was building works -- systems for the shuttle and for the rockets that would carry the shuttle. I was in charge of this group that did all the electrical checkout of all electrical wiring. Oh, I went through that. My last project was the B-1 bomber for Boeing. My group programmed all electrical checkout. We checked everything at the bench level. Then, after it was put in the airplane, we did a complete electrical checkout of all the electrical systems and I was working out at -- out in -- out in the desert, on March Air Force Base, and the Army had Lancaster, it was Lancaster, California. It had Army buildings and that's where the B-1 bomber was built. I used to go out there, lived out there maybe four, five weeks at a time checking out an aircraft, and then go back home again to LA, the home of Boeing at the time in Los Angeles right on the LA airport. A very uneventful life. I was no big hero, but I did what I was trained to do as an infantryman until I was, like I said, wounded; and then I went back, went through the Battle of Bulge. Thank God I did it unscathed and I went back to my family and raised three children. Other than that, I have no one to thank except the good lord who was good to me.

John Winter:

Have you kept any close friendships over the years with people you knew in the service?

Joseph Pernice:

From my Army days?

John Winter:

Yeah.

Joseph Pernice:

No. By the time I went back -- the company -- there were very few people left, very few. As a matter of fact, the picture I was showing you was company headquarters and they were all new to me. The only one I knew when I went back was Chafe (ph) Taylor lieutenant.

John Winter:

Did your time in service influence your thinking about war and the military ever?

Joseph Pernice:

I beg your pardon?

John Winter:

Did your time in the service, did it influence any of your thinking about war or the military?

Joseph Pernice:

About thinking about military? No, cause I was already married when I left and, we didn't have any children for at least a year after I got out of the service. And after that, no. I did have one good friend when I was in the basic training, with a very good friend of mine, Morris Person. I'll never forget his name. He and I were very, very, very good friends, but when I was separated from the Yankee Division, moved into the th Division, I lost track of him for about 15 years. And one day I got a telephone call and a man is on the phone and he says, "Is this Joseph Pernice?" I says, "Yeah." He says, "Joseph Pernice that used to work for Associated Hospital Service in New York?" I said, "Yeah." He says, Is this Joseph Pernice who had a sister named Grace?" I said, "Yes, who is this?" He says, Joe, it's me, Moe Person." I said, "And where are you?" He said, "I live in Palm Springs." I said, "How in the world you find me?" He said, "I went through every telephone book, every directory until I found somebody by the name of Pernice." And that's -- that's the last of my Army friends. And as a matter of fact, it was maybe a year or two after that, Moe had been wounded badly, he's wearing a brace on a leg, he died and his family looked me up and I attended the services; and I did -- I did a memorial service for his family, telling them about Moe and the kind of man he was. That's all. I really -- I didn't keep too many friends, not in combat anyway. I had seen replacements come up on a line and 24 hours later they were being shipped to a hospital. Everyone's life wasn't very long. Not too many of them.

John Winter:

How -- how did your service and your experience in his the war effect your life?

Joseph Pernice:

Oh, I don't know. I have a respect for law and order and for rules and regulations. Oh, definitely. I don't know, it made a better person out of me, I suppose. I wasn't a run-around as a young man. As a matter of fact, I was going to St. John's when I was drafted. I was -- my dad had -- my dad came to this country as a young man with his parents, I'd say in the late 1800s and he came to this country, he was probably about; 15 years old, from Italy, and he was a baker. So I was brought up in a bakery. I was taught -- I was taught the business, you but I went to college. My father didn't want me to be a baker, and I learned responsibility early. I had good training. I didn't have trouble -- I didn't have time to get in trouble. My father kept me busy.

John Winter:

Do you have any opinion, anything else you want to add I should ask you?

Joseph Pernice:

No, really, I went through a war. I did what I was asked to do. I did it to the best of my ability. I settled down and I raised a family. I had a boy that's served as an air traffics -- air traffic controller Viet Nam. He served. My older boy didn't serve cause he had a -- he had a low back problem, and he was turned down by the Army, anyway. But he is an engineer, works for Boeing. My -- the younger boy who was in Viet Nam lives in Napa, and he -- he sells commercial TV and audio and radio equipment to the TV stations and radio stations. I have a girl, our youngest, who is married, has three. The boys each have two. So my wife and I are grandparents of seven. The eldest right now is 20 years old of my grandchildren. It wasn't a very illustrious life.

John Winter:

Thank you very much, Mr. Pernice, for this afternoon.

Joseph Pernice:

You're welcome

John Winter:

It's very nice of you.

Joseph Pernice:

Thank you. Thank you. I hope you can use it.

John Winter:

Yeah, we, too.

Joseph Pernice:

Thank you.