Interview with [October 12-13, 2001]

James H. Billington:

You call this place -- how do you describe it? It's not Charlottesville exactly.

John W. Kluge:

Yes. This is Charlottesville.

James H. Billington:

This is Charlottesville. Okay.

James H. Billington:

We're recording, and we're with Mr. John W. Kluge. I'm James H. Billington. We are on October 12 of 2001 in Charlottesville, Virginia. I'm the Librarian of Congress, and I'm here to ask Mr. Kluge, first of all, what branch of the service you served in, and with what rank, and in what theaters?

John W. Kluge:

I volunteered before the draft, because, at that time, if one volunteered, you would get out in a year. Well, I don't have to tell you what happened, because after that, we went into a period where we declared war, and I think I stayed in the service a total of four and a half years. And I went in as a private. I went to the Quartermaster corps and became a lieutenant, and later I became a first lieutenant, and later a captain. And I remember the first sergeant saying, "You know, you ought to become a first sergeant. Why do you go to officer's training camp, school?" I said, "Well, I think to better myself." He said, "You ought to become a first sergeant." I said, "Why?" He said, "You're the laziest son of a bitch in the camp." And that was my qualification. But I went on to officers training school anyhow.

James H. Billington:

And where was that?

John W. Kluge:

It was in Leesburg. Not Leesburg, but Petersburg, Virginia.

James H. Billington:

Petersburg, Virginia. And where were you at the time when you joined the service?

John W. Kluge:

Michigan. Detroit, Michigan.

James H. Billington:

Detroit, Michigan.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

And when was that? Was that 1940?

John W. Kluge:

Yes. I think it was 1940.

James H. Billington:

And why did you join at that time?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I joined because I felt I ought to go into the service, and I also joined because it was very clear cut that I would be out in a year.

James H. Billington:

Do you recall your first days in the service? What did that feel like, and what was your experience in the early training years, as an enlisted man?

John W. Kluge:

Well, as an enlisted man, the one thing I wanted to avoid was working in the kitchen. I hate the kitchen. But I remember it was Saturday, and I was so looking forward to getting a pass to go outside of the camp.

James H. Billington:

This camp -- excuse me -- was where?

John W. Kluge:

In Petersburg, Virginia.

James H. Billington:

I see.

John W. Kluge:

And I was peeling potatoes, and it was [in] a hall, and these sacks of potatoes were one after another. And I was rushing to get through, and he said to me, the sergeant said to me, "Why are you rushing?" And then he showed me down the other hall there were still lots of sacks of potatoes. But there wasn't such a thing as a reprieve in the sense that if you were peeling potatoes, you would continue peeling potatoes. And of course, after awhile, the green soldiers came in, [and] in the mess hall we would put that fellow in the middle, and on both ends, they'd say to him, "Pass this," and then "Pass this." Poor fellow never had a chance to eat. He was always passing back and forth. But actually, I had to numb myself, because I was already out of school and in 1940, I was 26 years old. So I was older than a lot of the enlisted men, and I would continually think of other things, because it was quite confining. But nevertheless, I enjoyed it. I didn't enjoy the length of time, but the thing is that I was the officer in charge of a black unit.

James H. Billington:

Now this was when? This was after --

John W. Kluge:

After.

James H. Billington:

-- Officers Candidate School?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. And --

James H. Billington:

So where did you go from there, as an officer?

John W. Kluge:

To California.

James H. Billington:

To California.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

And that's when you were in charge of this unit?

John W. Kluge:

Yes. And actually, I could never understand just exactly -- I had some qualifications -- why I would then be put in the quartermaster corps, because I had some language skills. And then I found out, prior to my getting in the service, I met a girl who happens to be the niece of a schoolteacher in Detroit, and the schoolteacher with whom I -- in whose house I lived and did chores around the house for my board and room was friendly with this other teacher. And somehow or other, I had been in Europe just before. And she decided, because I had been in Germany and other places, that I was a German spy. And she wrote to the War Department, and that's why they sort of jerked me around. And then I was sent to the Aleutians.

James H. Billington:

This is right after the California --

John W. Kluge:

Yes. And I certainly was isolated in the Aleutians. And I was there during the winter.

James H. Billington:

How long were you in the California unit?

John W. Kluge:

I was based in the airfield outside of Los Angeles -- March Field. Which was an Air Force base. And there, part of the time I became the P.R. officer, and I remember that incident very well, because I introduced Marlene Dietrich to the troops, and I want to tell you, I never heard such resounding applause when she first spoke to them, and then danced, or sang to them. It was a highlight of my early experience in the Army.

James H. Billington:

Was that part of the origins of your long involvement in the entertainment and--

John W. Kluge:

I don't know.

James H. Billington:

-- media business?

John W. Kluge:

Well, what happened is, when I went into the Aleutians, where I was in charge of -- Assistant Army Transportation in Dutch Harbor, Alaska, that rather than getting drunk in the officers club every night, although some nights that was very comforting, I must tell you.

James H. Billington:

Long winters?

John W. Kluge:

Long winters. I was saying to myself, "I certainly am not going to be in this forever, and what am I really going to do, or where do I think, the future might be?" And I decided in early '42, that I would go into the service business. It took a little capital. And that's what I did after I got out of the army. But --

James H. Billington:

What was your actual assignment in the Aleutians?

John W. Kluge:

I was the Assistant Superintendent of Army Transportation.

James H. Billington:

And what did that involve?

John W. Kluge:

It involved --

James H. Billington:

Can you relate that to the war effort?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. It involved when troop ships would come into the Aleutians, 15,000 men, to meet that ship and to make arrangements for where they were going to go, and to give them supplies in the interim, whatever they needed. And I remember, though, one time the quartermaster had a private yacht. I remember it belonged to the Zellerbach family in San Francisco. And the chief officer of Dutch Harbor was out there with this yacht fishing, and I was frantic. I needed this boat. And I told the operator to cut everybody off. And of course, I cut the commanding officer off. After awhile --

James H. Billington:

Cut him off. I'm not sure what you mean by that.

John W. Kluge:

On the phone.

James H. Billington:

I see. On the phone. Okay.

John W. Kluge:

And he called me. He said, "Did you cut me off?" I said, "Yes, I did." Well, he said, "You know, you're an officer now, but I think you might be better off being a private no class." At least private first class, you know, was something. But from his point of view, it was going to be a private no class. And I said, "Yes, sir, yes, sir, yes, sir." What else could I say? Well, needless to say, time passed. One day, after they cleared my record in Washington, I get this directive from Washington. The orders are secret, destination is secret by order of the Secretary of War. He called me, this commanding officer called me in his office. He said, "Who do you know in Washington?" Well, I said, "Sir, I know the president." Of course, I didn't know the president at all. "And I have certain ideas that I'm going to tell the president what's happening here at this post." And I gave him a smart salute and turned around and walked out of the office. Believe it or not, then I became an officer in military intelligence, General Marshall's staff in the Pentagon and at the --

James H. Billington:

This was about when?

John W. Kluge:

This would be about '43.

James H. Billington:

'43. Okay.

John W. Kluge:

By the way, I went to the officers training school, military intelligence, at Camp Ritchie in Maryland, which is right near Camp David.

James H. Billington:

Oh, right.

John W. Kluge:

And, as a matter of fact, it was from that officers graduation as a military intelligence officer that I was sent to the Quartermaster Corps, and --

James H. Billington:

You went to the military intelligence before you went to Alaska?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

Oh, I see.

John W. Kluge:

And you see, they put me in the Quartermaster Corps, so they would isolate me.

James H. Billington:

I see. I see.

John W. Kluge:

Well, here I am in Washington, and I'm on the dance floor of the Shoreham Hotel, and I bumped into this commanding officer, and I looked at him, and I said, "I told the president that you ought to stay in the Aleutians." And I said, "I'm going to certainly talk to him tomorrow." And went right on dancing. I wanted to scare the hell out of him. Anyhow.

James H. Billington:

Now, a couple of questions. What was he doing with a private yacht? Was this commandeered by -- for the war effort?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. Yeah.

James H. Billington:

Right. Okay.

John W. Kluge:

But he --

James H. Billington:

So it wasn't a private yacht then, it was --

John W. Kluge:

Yes. Well, he was using it for his private purpose.

James H. Billington:

Purposes.

John W. Kluge:

And fishing and --

James H. Billington:

I see.

John W. Kluge:

-- whatever.

James H. Billington:

Now was it not also true, before we leave Alaska, that there was one bombing raid --

John W. Kluge:

Yes, there was. The quartermaster depot was bombed.

James H. Billington:

That was where you were stationed, at Dutch Harbor?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. And I was talking to the commanding officer, and I said, "Isn't it awful the place was bombed?" He said, "It's the best thing that ever happened to us. Everything we ever lost was in that depot." And I understood, you know, because they --

James H. Billington:

This was the same commanding officer who'd been fishing on the boat earlier? Or it was a different commanding officer?

John W. Kluge:

I think it was a different one.

James H. Billington:

A different one. Okay.

John W. Kluge:

But I have very vivid memories of Dutch Harbor. Firstly, the tundra, and the rats were as big as rabbits. Not only do they sit on their hind legs, but they would glare at you. They weren't afraid of you. And there were so many of them around the kitchens and so and so. And we had these big boots on, so we didn't care. We would just walk around them, walk over them, whatever. But that was an experience.

James H. Billington:

When did this bombing occur? Was it just a one time --

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

It must have been fairly effective, if they took out the supply --

John W. Kluge:

Well, but actually they were -- the Japanese were along that chain, Umnak, Adak, Attu. And they were there. And actually, our strategic plan was to divert the Japanese naval power to protect their country along that chain. And when we -- I think it was Attu. We went in Attu, the Japanese weren't there.

James H. Billington:

This was when? What --

John W. Kluge:

This must have been when the Japanese -- this must have been in the '41 period, '42 period.

James H. Billington:

Fairly early.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. Very early.

James H. Billington:

They occupied Attu --

John W. Kluge:

Yes. They --

James H. Billington:

And then left it.

John W. Kluge:

And left it.

James H. Billington:

I see.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

And the bombing occurred roughly when?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I think it occurred in late '40.

James H. Billington:

Oh, it was early.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. I think -- you know, it's been 60-some odd years ago.

James H. Billington:

Yeah. But it was relatively early in the war.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. Right. And I remember in the toilet, some smart aleck wrote on the wall, "In case of an air attack, stand here. Nobody's ever hit it." Including the guys that are urinating there. You know.

James H. Billington:

In terms of your experience up there, did you have plenty of supplies?

John W. Kluge:

Oh, yes. We had plenty of supplies.

James H. Billington:

Plenty of supplies.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah, and I learned one thing, because I was also, in a way, working closely with the Navy, that the Navy takes much better care of their people than the Army does.

James H. Billington:

In what sense?

John W. Kluge:

Well, they seem to have better food, more variety. They had things that we talked about, but never saw. I mean, delicacies. And you know, when you're up in that area, that environment, even a piece of fruit looks like something that dropped from Heaven.

James H. Billington:

Did you have any entertainment, any diversions, any leave time up there? Or was it -- how did that work?

John W. Kluge:

They would give you leave time. I remember a nurse -- when I first came up there, the General walked in with the head nurse. And I've got to tell you, she was uglier than sin. And all these people in the dining hall, which wasn't that big, stood up and I said to the fellow next to me. I said, "Why all this fuss?" He said, "When did you get up here?" I said, "Well, I got up here yesterday." He said, "Wait 'til you're up here a month. She will look like an American beauty." She went -- talking about vacation, she went on vacation, supposedly for two weeks to Seattle. She was there about three days, four days. She came back. In other words, she got so much attention in the Aleutians, and she got no attention in Seattle, which I can understand.

James H. Billington:

So she voluntarily came back.

John W. Kluge:

She came back.

James H. Billington:

Just after three days. What did you do when you were on leave? You must have had some leave up there?

John W. Kluge:

No, I had --

James H. Billington:

You didn't have --

John W. Kluge:

No. All right.

James H. Billington:

Do you have any photographs, or any records of the time in Alaska?

John W. Kluge:

I don't think so.

James H. Billington:

Did they have photographers up there, I wonder? Not so much?

John W. Kluge:

All I remember up there is having a wisdom tooth pulled. And two young dentists, and they -- now they're talking to each other. "What are we going to do? We can't get this whole tooth." I want to tell you, they worked on me so that for 15 years, the nerve in my chin was affected. It took 15 years for it to regenerate.

James H. Billington:

Were there expectations in the early days, when the Japanese did move into some of those islands, whether --

John W. Kluge:

Well --

James H. Billington:

Were people fearful that they were going to keep on coming?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah, of course.

James H. Billington:

I mean, [were] there any preparations made up there that --

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. We would stand, of course, guard, and had all kinds of electronic gear. The people I felt really sorry for were the people on the submarines, who would go in this Bering Sea, and the Russians had much better topographical maps than we did. You know. They'd been up there for many years. And also, the flyers. Because the clouds would just come in, and it might be very clear, and all at once, it becomes very cloudy. And you know, up there, there's such a thing, it's called a williwaw. It's a snow that doesn't go vertical, but goes horizontal. It is -- and the wind just keeps driving. I mean, you just have -- and after you get used to it, and the williwaw, the thing that a number of soldiers did is committed suicide.

James H. Billington:

Really.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. Because they couldn't take it. They weren't balanced, and they couldn't take it. And that's understandable.

James H. Billington:

Did you have any contact with the Russians?

John W. Kluge:

Oh, yeah. I did.

James H. Billington:

How did that work?

John W. Kluge:

I remember, we used to have these old rusty boats come in, and some of them -- the captains were women. And I mean, they looked -- I mean, they were five feet high and five feet wide. And they would bark these men around like nobody's business. They were to get only so many buckets of coal. You know, they were coal burning. And they would ply me with vodka. But I would always have a pencil, and when five buckets were put into the hold, I would put a scratch. And then after ten of those scratches, I knew that was 50 buckets. And then I'd do another one. Let's say they would get 150 buckets. When it got to 149 buckets, I'd say -- they didn't understand - "That's one more and that's enough for these jerks." And I'd smile at the Russians, and you know. And they thought, "Oh, boy, we've got this guy in the bag." As it got to be 140, I would become very expansive, and I'd act a little more drunk than I was, and I might have been drunk to start with. But when it got to 150, I got up and then walked down the plank, and the Russians would be talking to themselves, "What the hell happened," you know. They couldn't understand that you could be drunk and [not] forget the number of buckets. Yeah.

James H. Billington:

So what the Russians -- the contact with the Russians was basically refueling.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah, it was --

James H. Billington:

Were they on patrol, or were they --

John W. Kluge:

Some were fishing boats.

James H. Billington:

Oh, I see.

John W. Kluge:

And they were -- oh, they were the oldest looking boats. I mean, there was --

James H. Billington:

In addition to refueling and a certain amount of resupplying, was there any, so to speak, arrangements with the Russians in the Aleutian area that you were part of, or had a sense of, that could be called joint war planning?

John W. Kluge:

No. It didn't seem that way to me, because the boats that I would fill with buckets of coal were -- if they were part of planning, they certainly hid their talents under a bushel basket, because they were the toughest looking people, and it seemed to me that wherever a woman was in charge, the men seemed to be quite small. I don't know whether that was done with design, but I'll tell you, they were afraid as can be of a woman captain. Evidently, if they just didn't follow the script, they'd be, I guess, reported back when they got back to Russia. And I think they probably went to Vladivostock.

James H. Billington:

What was your impression, apart from the commanding officers, of whom you've already spoken, what was your impression of fellow soldiers there in Alaska? In general, in your military career up to Washington. We'll talk about Washington --

John W. Kluge:

Well, I think most people felt they weren't going to get home alive. I was one of them. And I remember one convoy where we had a fellow that was going to be cute, and he disappeared. We hunted all over for him, and we literally carried him on to the boat, and he went on the chain --

James H. Billington:

Where were the convoys going, and where were they coming from?

John W. Kluge:

Well, they were going along the Aleutian chain.

James H. Billington:

To where, though?

John W. Kluge:

Well, to Umnak, Adak.

James H. Billington:

Oh, I see. Right.

John W. Kluge:

I think the environment there was such that I think people were more concerned about the environment, you know, with these williwaws and I mean, you could literally be carried off in the wind. And as a matter of fact, when I came to the Aleutians, I came in the United Fruit Liner, and we couldn't land, or dock, rather, for a couple of days, because it was so rough in the Bering Sea, you only have about four minutes to live if you have to go into that water.

James H. Billington:

After you got to Washington, what was your duty there?

John W. Kluge:

I was active in the post called 1142, which is a secret post, and we were involved in the order of battle. I was on General Marshall's staff. And I had under me very bright young people. A lot of them were of Jewish faith who came from different parts of the Middle East or Germany or whatever. And they were promised that after the war, they would become a citizen of the United States. And they were bright. They were very assiduous. They were unusual people.

James H. Billington:

Were they in the service, or --

John W. Kluge:

They were in the service.

James H. Billington:

In the service.

John W. Kluge:

Now, I would interview, from time to time, German Generals, and I would drive them in my car around --

James H. Billington:

Captured German Generals?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. And I would take them in my car and show them the Pentagon. And I said to these Generals, "You know, this is the annex. The big one makes this place look small." Well, you did all kinds of things with these people. You were working on their head. But we would know from past documentation who could understand English and who could speak English and so and so. And of course, they wouldn't speak any English. It's all German. And I would - we'd have a man dressed as a Russian officer, and he looked Russian -- he was Russian, and he spoke Russian. But he spoke English, too. I would say, "Look. We can't get any information out of this officer. All he would give is his rank, his serial number, and the unit he's with." And I would say to the Russian -- this was all pre-planned - "Look. We're going to give this guy one more day. Then I'm going to turn him over to you, and you can send him to Siberia or wherever you want to send him, and let your people deal with him. "Because you know, I'm sorry I have to tell you this, we're much nicer to these people. You people are very rough." And of course, the Germans were deathly afraid of the Russians. Deathly afraid of them. So the next day, things went a lot better.

James H. Billington:

Now, who were some of the Germans? Do you remember the names of any of the Germans?

John W. Kluge:

They were -- we flew them over, and --

James H. Billington:

I see. You were flown over from Germany to Washington?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. To 1142.

James H. Billington:

I see. 1142 was --

John W. Kluge:

It's a secret post between the Pentagon and Mt. Vernon.

James H. Billington:

I see. And this is where these guys were kept and interrogated?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

Just for order of battle information?

John W. Kluge:

Right.

James H. Billington:

I see.

John W. Kluge:

Now, to give you an example, we would have the telephone directory of the Reichstag. We'd have, you know, certain of that information, which we got through couriers. We would also follow, in local newspapers, who went where. And of course, we knew the order of battle and the chain of command. We knew that 36 was a certain General, and 45 was another General, and they would communicate, and we'd say to them, "Look. We got all that information between you and so and so. We recorded it. "We know you went to Rommel's daughter's wedding. We know. We had someone there." We didn't, but, you know, it was in the newspaper. And I mean, these bits of information [were] very unsettling. I don't have to tell you that -- And this other information. For example, the 10th Panzer Division, which was going from Germany to Italy --

James H. Billington:

This was when? '44? Late '43?

John W. Kluge:

I can't tell you exactly. '43, '44. '43, I think it was.

James H. Billington:

You came to Washington from Alaska when? Roughly '42, three --

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. '42.

James H. Billington:

'42. Late '42, and --

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

Okay.

John W. Kluge:

So in the 10th Panzer Division, there was a sergeant who sort of staked out the path. And one of his hobbies was visiting the local brothel. Well, we had the madams of these different places wired. You know, they were in our camp.

James H. Billington:

This was in Germany?

John W. Kluge:

This was in --

James H. Billington:

-- in France or --

John W. Kluge:

In Italy.

James H. Billington:

Italy. Okay.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. And parts of Germany -- But primarily in Italy. And so in documentation, you take every bit of information. This was just one part, which corroborated the path that the 10th Panzer Division was using. You know, which was a tank unit. Very formidable. Well, they plied this German sergeant with liquor, and of course made him feel at home, and only the Italians know how to do this.

James H. Billington:

Wait a minute. This sergeant, this is a German sergeant?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. German sergeant.

James H. Billington:

And he's in Italy at this point?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. And he's in Italy.

James H. Billington:

All right.

John W. Kluge:

And he visited these various brothels, and he spilled his guts to different madams that, you know.

James H. Billington:

So you traced the brothel trail.

John W. Kluge:

Yes.

James H. Billington:

Okay.

John W. Kluge:

Right.

James H. Billington:

I see.

John W. Kluge:

Through this sergeant. But that was only one source of information. So there were many other sources they would follow. But the red book is the order of battle, and we handed that to Eisenhower, the latest, you know, when we landed in Normandy. And we had a green book, the order of battle, which was a Japanese--

James H. Billington:

There were, what, three of these? The yellow book, red book and green book?

John W. Kluge:

No. Just the red book and the green book. Yeah.

James H. Billington:

So that was sort of done by your unit there?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. And the Pentagon. There was a civilian. They had a source in the Pentagon who was a researcher, who never took a bath.

James H. Billington:

Never took --

John W. Kluge:

Never took a bath. He was so busy researching, I guess, he never took a bath.

James H. Billington:

Who did you deliver this information to? What was the delivery chain from that unit? Your role in this unit was what? You were --

John W. Kluge:

I was head of the unit at 1142. That is of the order of battle section.

James H. Billington:

That was basically interrogating German --

John W. Kluge:

Well, and getting documents. You know, when we conquered a certain area -- [after the] battle, we collected all kinds of documents. Well, we went through those documents.

James H. Billington:

And this was German language material.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

And that material went to whom. Who was the --

John W. Kluge:

Well, we went through, and what we would do is glean out of it information, which then went to -- in the Pentagon -- to some Colonel or General and then went on up the command. If it was important, they would -- you know, they would get other information, you know, airplane information.

James H. Billington:

Just in human terms, what struck you about that work, or that whole period. For the rest of the war you were doing that, basically?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

'Til the end of the war?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

Any particular memorable moments in that period?

John W. Kluge:

Well, the most memorable moment, the head officer of 1142, we also had horses there. He loved horses. And I gave a cocktail party in Washington one night, and he got back to 1142. He let all the horses out, and I tell you, 1142 was never the same. And --

James H. Billington:

Did he do this by accident, or--

John W. Kluge:

No, he -- the point is, he was loaded.

James H. Billington:

Oh, I see.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. He's a free spirit. Well, you know, in that kind of setting you get really tightened up, and when you --

James H. Billington:

Long work hours. Presumably, this was --

John W. Kluge:

Oh, yeah.

James H. Billington:

Tense stuff.

John W. Kluge:

Oh, yeah.

James H. Billington:

So when did you get out? What was your --

John W. Kluge:

Well, I got out. Yeah. I heard the announcement. Right in front of the University Club on 16th Street that the war was over. And I knew I would get out. And they said, "Don't leave. We're going to make you a Major." I said, "Thank you a lot." [Laughs] I said, but you know, when I come to think of it, I didn't know about this gal that wrote this letter. And she -

James H. Billington:

[inaudible] wrote you a letter--

John W. Kluge:

And she wrote -- no, that [I was] a German spy, and that's --

James H. Billington:

Oh, the one that wrote the letter.

John W. Kluge:

Otherwise, you see, I probably would have been behind the German lines, and might never have made it. So in a way, she did me a favor, you know? She wrote me a letter. She lived on 5th Avenue in New York.

James H. Billington:

Oh, you heard from her afterward?

John W. Kluge:

Yes. I heard from her, and she was very sorry that she did this. And she got this because my partner, Joe Brechner in the radio business, we started our first radio station in Silver Spring, Maryland. WGAY. And she read these articles in the Saturday Evening Post, and then made up her mind that I must not be a German spy.

James H. Billington:

Wait a minute. So that was when you got out -

John W. Kluge:

Got out, yes.

James H. Billington:

You set up this station.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

And that's when you heard from her after [you got out].

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

I see. Do you remember -- I mean, was that right away after the war was over, or how soon?

John W. Kluge:

About a year and a half afterwards.

James H. Billington:

What did you do in the immediate aftermath of getting out, before you went to work?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I represented several paper companies, one in Lansing and --

James H. Billington:

You went back to Michigan?

John W. Kluge:

No, no. I never went -- I decided I would never go back to Detroit, and that's why I -- but I made my home in Washington.

James H. Billington:

I see. And did you -- from your service experience, did you make any friendships that you kept up with, or any associations? Did that have any --

John W. Kluge:

No.

James H. Billington:

-- you were working with, didn't have any --

John W. Kluge:

No. Well, there was one, but he died. He was a Major.

James H. Billington:

Was that in Alaska?

John W. Kluge:

No, in the Pentagon. Yeah. Actually, I didn't have too much in common, you know. I was older than most of the young people.

James H. Billington:

Sure. One aspect that we didn't cover too much was that before you went to Alaska, you said you were commander of a largely African-American unit.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

Did you have any particular observations? How did that --

John W. Kluge:

Well --

James H. Billington:

That was before --

John W. Kluge:

Yes. I got the unit together and I said, "I'm going to tell you. I don't want anybody to steal anything. Either in camp or off the camp. But I will defend you at every turn. I will be your best friend." Well, you know, when they would get some time off, they'd go into Riverside, let's say California, which was a very conservative community, and they'd buy a bottle of wine, and a couple of them would sit on a bench in the park and, you know, laugh and have this wine, and the police would just take them in. Well, they knew I would defend them at every turn, which I did. But at the same time, I would be a tough task master if they stole, you know, or did anything among themselves. I would also play tricks with them. For example, I would be marching with them, and some girls would be marching by on the right side, I'd give them "Eyes left." As soon as they got past, I'd give them "Eyes right." [Laughs] But you know, being of European descent, I certainly had no prejudice about commanding a black unit.

James H. Billington:

How long did that --

John W. Kluge:

Probably eight months.

James H. Billington:

Uh-huh. Did you keep any Reserve connection, or have you had any connection with veterans organizations?

John W. Kluge:

No.

James H. Billington:

Or anything of that kind?

John W. Kluge:

No.

James H. Billington:

Would you say that your military experience influenced your thinking about war, about the military in general, about world affairs?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I think I always feel that to be a pacifist in the long run is better, but I don't have to tell you, if it comes to a point where a peace effort can only be resolved by some kind of war action, I'm for it. It's not -- in other words, I've never been a rabid militaristic person. I always think you can resolve something by discussing it and trying to see the other person's point of view. But for example, I saw Hitler coming into a Berlin amphitheater, and his plane had some flames --

James H. Billington:

When was this?

John W. Kluge:

This was before we entered the war. This is before I went into the army.

James H. Billington:

You saw him in person, or you --

John W. Kluge:

Well, I saw his plane.

James H. Billington:

I see. This was in Germany.

John W. Kluge:

In Germany. And I said to my uncle, when I came [back], who also came from Germany -- but also lived in the United States -- came over in 1926. I said, "I want to tell you something. Hitler's a fool, and Hitler will put all of Europe afire." And my uncle and I didn't talk for ten years, because, you know, some of that older generation, even though he wasn't for Hitler, he was not of the mind I was. I thought he was a fool, and of course, I was, at that time, in my early 20s.

James H. Billington:

Were there any particular feelings you had as someone who had come from Germany originally, to be playing a role in the army that was opposing Hitler. You've already made clear your views on Hitler, but in general, how did that [inaudible].

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. I felt, even though I'm German, I've got to tell you, I'm not very German. And that came around about naturally. As a young boy -- I remember I was nine years of age, and my mother invited a family for Thanksgiving, and Germans don't have Thanksgiving. They never celebrate it.

James H. Billington:

This was roughly when?

John W. Kluge:

This is 1920 - let's see. It was -- oh, I was young.

James H. Billington:

You're still in Germany?

John W. Kluge:

No, no. In the United States.

James H. Billington:

You're in the United States. Okay.

John W. Kluge:

And -- 1920, let's see. '25. And my mother was in the kitchen, and this woman was in the kitchen. And she cut up two turkeys. She was a big woman. Her husband was a big man. The children were giants. And she cut up these turkeys. And I remember to this day, I remember exactly where I was sitting. And she said, "Hans" -- that's German for John. And she said, "How do you like the turkey?" And I said, "I don't know. I don't have any." But she did, she took potatoes all around, put the two necks in the middle, and then gravy. And I remember these two necks swimming around, and my mother was mad at me, because I was too smart an aleck, you know. But it was true. And I've had experiences like that, which -- I understand them, but I'm not their biggest fan.

James H. Billington:

Are there any other experiences, thoughts, or reflections about your experience during the war time years and in the service that we haven't covered that you'd like to mention, or that have occurred to you in the course of our discussion that we haven't explicitly questioned you about?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I think I felt proud to be in my effort, being a very small way in the American army, and when I think how lucky I was to come to this country in 1922 when I was eight years of age. I would have been fodder in Hitler's army. You got to be lucky in life. And I had absolutely nothing to do with it. My mother married an American citizen who was of German origin, and they met in Germany, and through common friends, and that's how I came to the United States. So I think, you know, I'm not only proud to be an American, but I'm proud that, in a small way, I -- in four-and-a-half years, which was actually a long time, considering my age at the time, but are probably worth-while in context of my own life, you know. Because I take freedom with responsibility as being the best combinations that can be in being a citizen of a country.

James H. Billington:

One question I forgot to ask, just briefly, why did you join the Army rather than, say, the Navy, or --

John W. Kluge:

Well, I could have joined the Navy, and I could have gotten a commission. But I wanted to start from scratch so that if I had a unit, I would have gone through the training, not just be appointed an ensign. I could have done that. That's not my style.

James H. Billington:

And you didn't have to, at least, peel any potatoes in Alaska. Was that --

John W. Kluge:

No.

James H. Billington:

You escaped that [inaudible].

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. Well, up there, I was an officer.

James H. Billington:

Yeah.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

Well, anything else? Any other final thoughts? This has been excellent, and we thank you for sharing so much and so many stories. Are there any -- your personal reflections are so vivid, I'm tempted to see if there's one more before we sign off. [BEGIN TAPE 2, SIDE A]

John W. Kluge:

-- artillery unit. And we were very excited, but nothing happened.

James H. Billington:

You were going to [use] anti-aircraft missiles --

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

-- [if] they bombed L.A.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

I see.

John W. Kluge:

But you know, that was a real possibility, because, as you know, they bombed Pearl Harbor.

James H. Billington:

Were you well-prepared? If they had bombed L.A., did you have a good -

John W. Kluge:

In the beginning of the war, we were neophytes, because we weren't ready. There's one [story] -- I remember in Washington, I was at a cocktail party in Washington, and I think I had my uniform on. And I talked to this man, and I said, "The Pentagon is certainly a tough place to work, because it's so big," and so on and so forth. And he said, "I'm John McShane. I built the Pentagon." And I said, "My name is John Kluge. You forget you ever met me." So I had a lot of experience in research, which has stood me very well. You know, in my later life. And working with materials that were -- it's a lot of times farfetched, but you could trace back its meaning when you look it with other stuff. You know.

James H. Billington:

And that must have had some influence on your ability to think strategically -- your business in the investment world.

John W. Kluge:

Absolutely. Absolutely.

James H. Billington:

This is the --

John W. Kluge:

Absolutely.

James H. Billington:

So in that sense, it was a kind of building experience.

John W. Kluge:

And, as a matter of fact, you know, the army teaches a lot of very good disciplines, and I was always proud in the officer's training, you know, to pass the inspections. But one day, this officer with white gloves went under my bed and along the metal, and there was dust. And I looked at it, he looked at it. It was dust. And I didn't pass the inspection. But it was fun because they made you focus on a lot of the detail.

James H. Billington:

Well, thank you very much. This concludes the interview, with deep appreciation.

John W. Kluge:

And if you want to start this other, we can start.

James H. Billington:

Sure. We can. I don't want to cut it off -- are you okay with that?

John W. Kluge:

Sure. Let's do it.

James H. Billington:

[Interview with Mr. John] Kluge, conducted by James H. Billington, the Librarian of Congress, on October 12th the year 2001. Dealing with his life and career. Mr. Kluge, beginning with your years in Germany, what of importance happened in those years, or do you recall from those years that had ongoing significance for your later career as it developed?

John W. Kluge:

Well I came to the United States in 1922, when I was eight years of age, and we stopped at the Taft Hotel, which was --

James H. Billington:

Did you come by boat? Did you come through Ellis Island?

John W. Kluge:

We came on the S.S. Washington. We came by boat. I went through Ellis Island. In fact, I'm one of the big contributors personally to the Statue of Liberty rebuilding. But I came over on the S.S. Washington, which was a ten-day trip at that time. And we stayed at the Taft Hotel. I don't know, but those days seem that women always looked under the bed. I guess they thought maybe there would be some thief or something. I don't know. It was sort of a well-known event in women's lives. They'd look under the bed. Well, my mother saw piles of marks. She said, "Where did you get this?" I told her that when she and my stepfather were on their honeymoon in Germany, I would take a few marks out of his pockets every night until I had accumulated -- She said, "Why did you do that?" "Because if I didn't like the United States, I'd have money to go back." Well, you know, in 1922, I don't have to tell you the mark was inflated, [there was] inflation. You would go into a restaurant in the morning and they'd take this amount of marks. If you'd go in there the next morning, they'd take this amount of marks. In other words, the inflation was just out of control. So I would stick my head out of the Taft Hotel, see the fire engines, see Times Square. And it excited me. When we got to Detroit, I said to my mother, "I'm never going to live here. I'm going to eventually go back to New York."

James H. Billington:

Why did you move to Detroit?

John W. Kluge:

Because my stepfather's business was in Detroit.

James H. Billington:

Which being?

John W. Kluge:

He was a painting contractor. He wanted me to go into his business. I'd finished the first year in high school, and I didn't want to go into his business. I wanted to go on and get an education.

James H. Billington:

Just a minute more on the German experience, is there anything -- you don't remember anything of World War I and the outcome? You were, of course, very, very young, but do you have any memories of Germany that have played a continuing role in your life and thinking from your years actually in Germany, before you got to the United States?

John W. Kluge:

I was always a gambler. I mean, in those years, I gambled for nebs, you know, which was the little marbles. I'm not a professional gambler, but I love to gamble. So that certainly followed me. And also, that I didn't want to live in Detroit.

James H. Billington:

Didn't what?

John W. Kluge:

Want to live in Detroit. So I left home, and I lived at the home of a schoolteacher.

James H. Billington:

This is in --

John W. Kluge:

Detroit.

James H. Billington:

Detroit still.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. And finished my education, but I had to --

James H. Billington:

In the public schools?

John W. Kluge:

In the public -- Northwestern High School. And because I needed a scholarship, I got a scholarship. I got several scholarships. I could have gone to the University of Chicago. I got one that I used in Detroit City College, which is now Wayne State University. And I got one from Columbia. But it isn't that I wanted to go to Columbia so much as I wanted to go back to New York City, and --

James H. Billington:

You told me the story about the interview with Columbia.

John W. Kluge:

Oh, yeah.

James H. Billington:

Which is --

John W. Kluge:

Do you want me to --

James H. Billington:

I think --

John W. Kluge:

Well, the point is, Ed Litchfield, who became president of Carnegie Tech. He and I were competing for this scholarship. He was very suave. He was on the debating team. He dressed smartly; I dressed like a country bumpkin. And I was interviewed by Alan Crowe. Alan Crowe was the first president of the Detroit Economic Club. And I asked Mr. Crowe if I could be interviewed after Ed Litchfield, which I was. And I said to Mr. Crowe at the end of the interview -- I didn't say anything, but I went to the front door and then the thought struck me. I went back, and I said, "Mr. Crowe, look at my hands." They were very rough, because I did a lot of work with my hands. "I don't know whether I'm going to get this scholarship, but I want you to look at my hands. They're going to see me through." And I got the scholarship. But you know, I tended always to push the envelope. After I got the scholarship, I wrote Columbia and said if they wanted me, they'd have to double the scholarship. Well, they did. But it took a month or so, and that schoolteacher, she and I would stop at Furndia, Michigan -- Box 63. It's a little box. And I would look into that window, that little box, and one day, there was a white envelope with blue printing, and I knew that was from Columbia. And, you know, I came out to this car, a little Ford, and I [showed it] to Ms. DaRatt, she said, "Read it." She said, "I'll bet they turned you down." I said, "I'll bet they didn't." It turned out, [that] they gave me the double scholarship. So I have been always very grateful to Columbia for it. So.

James H. Billington:

So then you went to Columbia. And you returned to New York?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I -- no. I went to Detroit. I went with a small factory.

James H. Billington:

Before you went to Columbia?

John W. Kluge:

No. This is after Columbia.

James H. Billington:

You went to Columbia, then you went back to Detroit.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. You know, in 1937, jobs were hard to find. Now, I could have gone with a large company and gotten much more salary.

James H. Billington:

What did you major in at Columbia?

John W. Kluge:

Economics.

James H. Billington:

Economics.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

Okay. So then you came back --

John W. Kluge:

I came back, and I went from shipping clerk to vice president of sales in less than two years. So you can imagine how big the company was. Anyhow, I learned a lot, though. I've always felt you should start, before you ever become a boss, you'd better know the steps along the way. The worst thing in the world, from my point of view, is to start from the top. You have no feeling about people under you.

James H. Billington:

What did you learn that you didn't expect from those early years? What were the surprises?

John W. Kluge:

At Columbia?

James H. Billington:

No, no. After Columbia --Your first work experience.

John W. Kluge:

My surprise is, you know, Columbia is easy. It was easier than being in the outside world. But I loved it. I never stayed for the graduation at Columbia; I worked, that night, in Holyoke, Massachusetts. By the way, until just the recent several years, I've always hated the weekend.

James H. Billington:

I beg your pardon?

John W. Kluge:

Hated the weekend.

James H. Billington:

You hated the weekend?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. Because I just loved doing what I was doing. And that has stayed with me all these years.

James H. Billington:

We were speaking about the period of your early work years, when you were --

John W. Kluge:

In my early work years, I worked for two tough Germans. Boy, were they tough. Just to give you an example, I would put in my expense account. I was on the road 40 weeks a year. In those days, I worked six days a week, except for a holiday. And I put down in the expenses, 5 cents. And Elmer Otten, who was head of the company, said to me, "What's the 5 cents for?" I said, "Well, in the afternoon, I want to re-energize myself, and I'll buy a Hershey bar." In those days, I stayed at the YMCAs. He said, "They have a cafeteria downstairs? Yeah. And they have a sugar bowl?" He said, "you take three or four of these sugar cubes, put them in your pocket, because a Hershey bar is nothing but sugar, and that's what gives you the energy." He said, "You know, you're on the road 40 weeks a year. 5 cents a day, 6 days a week, it's $12.00 a year. You know, you're never going to amount to anything." I mean, how low can you get? So I'm now walking out the office, and he says, "Come on back. That's $12.48." Interest was 4 percent in those years. In other words, "You're wasting $12.48 of this company's money." But it taught me something. It taught me how to be careful with expenses. You know, to this day, if I go into a restaurant in New York, I don't take a hat and coat. You know.

James H. Billington:

Uh-huh.

John W. Kluge:

There are certain things that have stayed with me. I remember, he used to wear a beret.

James H. Billington:

Who's he? Your --

John W. Kluge:

Elmer Otten. Yeah. In other words, these guys were so tight that they didn't have buffaloes on their nickels, they rubbed them so hard. And they wouldn't have a dime in their pocket, because that's too much money to carry around. [Laughter]

James H. Billington:

So [are there] any other either lessons you learned or experiences you had in these early years of working that influenced your later life?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I think I mentioned to the leadership people that -- I was in Detroit, going to Buffalo. And the snowstorm was -- so there were no taxi cabs. And I went out to this man's warehouse, and I had an appointment with somebody in that company. And I went all through the warehouse. Nobody was there, except on one floor, a man was in the corner. And I went up to him. He said, "What are you doing here?" I said, "I had an appointment with Mr. So-and-so." He said, "How did you get here?" I said, "I walked here." He was the owner of the business. He gave me the biggest order. And that stood with me. This is back in the late '30s. That carried on, so that in the early '60s, I was in Chicago, and I had to be at 9:00 o'clock in New York. I flew out of Chicago but in a snowstorm, so it was a DC-3 and we had to land in Cleveland. I got hold of a taxicab, drove all the way to Pittsburgh. Got on a train. Stood most of the way from Pittsburgh to New York, you know, a long way. And when I got to New York, believe it or not, no taxicabs. A snowstorm. Nobody. I had to walk from there up in -- from 33rd Street to in the 50s, and I had an appointment at 9:00 o'clock. And I got up there, nobody was there, but one man. So I went up to him, and he said, "What are you doing here?" I said, "I have an appointment with Mr. So-and-so." It was the first big money I borrowed. And he said, "Well, he isn't here." He said, "How did you get here?" And I told him it was Chicago to Cleveland, and then the taxicab and a train because I had a 9:00 o'clock appointment. He said, "You know, we have a committee that decides on these loans." And he took me to the elevator. He said, "You know, I head the committee. And I just want you to know, you got the loan." So the point is it carried on, you know, 25 years later, that experience.

James H. Billington:

Tell me a little bit about your first experiences in the media world after you got out of the service?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I --

James H. Billington:

And how did you get into that, and how did these early experiences in that area --

John W. Kluge:

I was walking on 15th Street in Washington, and I ran into Joe Brechner. He and I worked at the same company I was mentioning earlier. And Joe was working for the Veterans Administration. And I said, "Joe, I --"

James H. Billington:

How did you know this fellow?

John W. Kluge:

Well, he and I worked in the same company in Detroit.

James H. Billington:

Ah. Before the war.

John W. Kluge:

Right. And I said, "I just read in the Wall Street Journal where you could open up a radio station for $15,000." So he and I got together. I said, "You just keep your job, and I'll" -- and that was the first radio station, which went on the air December 7, 1946. WGAY. And I remember being at someone's house, and they said, "You know, I like the music you have on GAY, but I hear poundings of various types." I said, "It's got to be your set." The point is, we went on the air while the building was still being built, you know.

James H. Billington:

Was it an accident? That seems to be the fifth anniversary of Pearl Harbor. Did you do that --

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. I did it because I wanted to have the station start December 7th to coincide with Pearl Harbor, and also to beat a station that was going to go on the air in Bethesda, which -- we gave them so much competition, they became a black station, WOOK in the District. And Joe and I -- Joe had psoriasis, so he had to go down to a sunny climate, and we started -- we bought WLOF in Orlando, Florida, you know, real corn: We Love Orlando, Florida, WLOF. And --

James H. Billington:

How did you end up going from Bethesda to Orlando?

John W. Kluge:

From Silver Spring to Orlando.

James H. Billington:

Oh.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. Well, I felt that Orlando was going to be a growing area, because Disney and --

James H. Billington:

Well, Disney wasn't there yet.

John W. Kluge:

No, but they were planning.

James H. Billington:

Ah, you knew that this was going to --

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. And also, the company out of Baltimore, the airline company manufacturer. I can't think of their name. They were going into Orlando.

James H. Billington:

So when you had the radio station, you were also getting into other --

John W. Kluge:

Well, Joe and I -- I said, "You know, this fellow is doing a black station in Washington. That's a very economic kind of station to have." But Joe didn't want black stations, so I went on and started one. I bought one in St. Louis and Fort Worth and Pittsburgh and, you know, I had a number of radio stations on my own. But WGAY, Joe and I, and Joe said, "I don't like those call letters. WGAY." Joe, Joe Brechner.

James H. Billington:

He didn't like what?

John W. Kluge:

WGAY.

James H. Billington:

Okay.

John W. Kluge:

I said, I never explained it to him, but I was the majority owner, and I said, "Joe, I want to have those letters." Well, anyhow, there was a country music person in the Washington area on WPIK. His name was Connie B. Gay. And I would have the news car, WGAY, pass by slowly. I knew when he was on the air. Well I told the news reporter to drive slowly there every day, the second day, third day, and country music was becoming more important, and Connie became more and more important. So one day, I get a call from him. He said, "John, I'd like to see you." I never asked him about what. I knew what he was coming for. And he said, "I'd like to buy the station." So I said, "Well, Connie, okay. 600,000." So he looked through the inventory. He said, "Where's that news car?" Well I said, "This is the inventory." He said, "I don't want to buy the station unless I get that news car." I said, "Connie, you've got the news car, but I'm not going to sell you the real estate. I'll lease it to you." Oh, he said, "I don't care about the real estate." But he wanted that news car, which was worth $600. So now, on Friday, I was supposed to pick up that news car. [But I had had] it painted out so it was a regular car, because now I'm selling the station. And I called the guy and you know, these shops, you can hear everything, and you try to cover up the mouthpiece of the phone. He said, "You know, the screwball that had the car painted out, he wants to paint it just the way it was, but he'll pay double the wages for the weekend." So they repainted the car, and on Monday, I had the car --

James H. Billington:

Had it painted back.

John W. Kluge:

Had it back.

James H. Billington:

Interesting. [BEGIN TAPE 2, SIDE B]

James H. Billington:

At what point did you, and for what reason, did you decide to move beyond radio?

John W. Kluge:

Well, people, in the beginning, would say, "Why would you go into radio when television is getting bigger and bigger?" Well, you know, I felt that radio was here to stay. And radio today is bigger than it was 25 years ago, believe it or not. And then I wanted to have a radio station in New York, and I did: WNEW. But then I wanted a television [station]. It was natural growth to go from radio to television. And then go into other media. But you know, television was much more expensive, and even back in 1946, I was in FM. But it was in 1975 that I felt FM was going to really become successful commercially. You know, we duplicated the program in the beginning. And then the FCC said you have to separate them. Well, I bought FM in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Washington. And FM in New York and Philadelphia. And I can't remember. I think those were the main cities. And then, you know, I went into smaller markets in television like Peoria, Decatur, and then finally went into Minneapolis, Kansas City, and of course, Washington, New York, Dallas, Houston, Chicago. Interviewer: You did meet and know the television pioneer, Dumont, is that right?

John W. Kluge:

Alan Dumont, yeah.

James H. Billington:

Do you have any recollections of him?

John W. Kluge:

Yes, I do.

James H. Billington:

And impressions of him?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I think Alan Dumont was a great scientist. He was not a good CEO. He managed entirely in a micro way, micromanaged. He would sign nearly every check, whether it was $1,000 up. You can't manage a company like that. And he was not a good marketer. For example, he started out in television by putting out thousand dollar sets, when he should have been like Henry Ford, put out a couple of $100 sets, rough, tough, but not fancy. Because people wanted to see the picture. They didn't care about a piece of furniture. But he was a great seller because, again, he was quite scientific. If he had been a great marketer, he would have been the person in television. You know, he got into financial trouble, so Paramount had negative control. And then they separated Alan Dumont Manufacturing from Alan Dumont Broadcasting. And they had Alan Dumont - WTTG --it was his assistant, Tom T. Grossman. New York was WABD, Alan B. Dumont. And I remember when I first -- it was on 15th Street.

James H. Billington:

When did you first meet him?

John W. Kluge:

I met him in '59. Forty-two years ago. He could have been the person, because he certainly knew his science, and so did Tom Grossman. But for example, in FM, you know, it was really invented by Dr. Armstrong at Columbia. But RCA just shuffled him out, and finally Armstrong committed suicide. And that's where, if he had been a great marketer, he would have dominated television. He would have had Channel 5 in Boston.

James H. Billington:

Given the success and failures and disappointments of the Dumont Broadcasting Corporation during the mid-50s, what led you to purchase Paramount's shares in the failing company in '58, I guess it was, and turn it into the highly successful Metromedia? How did you --

John W. Kluge:

Well, Channel 5 in Washington and Channel 5 in New York never made any money. But timing is everything. And I felt the time was right for the independent stations to become more successful. And why? Because the ABC, CBS and NBC networks were such, and even the other people, they were strong. General Tire had the station in New York -- WOR. And then the Chicago Tribune had PIX in New York. And I felt as these stations became more successful, they would raise their rates, which gave an umbrella. And if I kept what I learned early in the years, a tight control, I could turn these stations around. And that's exactly what happened.

James H. Billington:

Tight control meaning what? In what sense?

John W. Kluge:

Their costs.

James H. Billington:

Oh, their costs. It was basically underselling the others?

John W. Kluge:

Well, the point is, we had to scurry around for all kinds of programming, and we were some of the early people in syndicating, buying syndicated product, like "I Love Lucy," "All in the Family," those. And I learned something in military intelligence which I used at television in New York. I knew we had a mole in our operation. I knew what we were doing was being leaked out to PIX, which was the Chicago Tribune. So the important thing is, you use a mole to your advantage. I told --

James H. Billington:

How did you know there was a mole?

John W. Kluge:

Well, the point is that I would -- and this is what you learn in the military. You send out five different messages, and the one that comes back is one of the five. And you then can pinpoint. Well, I told him this product that's coming into syndication was going to be the hottest thing ever. And we are going to bid on it - [even] if it's going to break us -- We're going to bid on it. He passed that on to the Chicago people, and of course, they bid and they bid and they bid. And you know, we didn't bid at all. So then there were two other products coming on, and I could just hear Chicago saying to management in New York, "Look. You paid a lot of money for this. You're not going to buy any product now." So we were able to buy those two syndicated products very cheap. And so you know, this is where you're using something you learned in the past for the future. You have to remember, we could never get into New York or Los Angeles, Chicago or Washington or Dallas, Houston. We could never get in those cities unless it were an independent. Now, we did buy some networks, but it's the independent, which is now the basis for Rupert's Fox network.

James H. Billington:

But did you conceive of the idea from the beginning? The fact that there were three other networks that existed, did you --

John W. Kluge:

No. No.

James H. Billington:

What led you into it?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I wanted to give the impression of a network without being a network. In other words, we were a commercial network, so to speak, but we weren't wired together. We gave the illusion, you know, of being Metromedia, and we competed on the local level. Now, CBS put out all kinds of research that our audience was the secondary audience. Funny thing is, talking about that, when Rupert bought the Post in New York, one of the big stores there, the president said to Rupert --

James H. Billington:

Which president?

John W. Kluge:

The president of the big department store. He said, "You know, we can't advertise with you."

James H. Billington:

We can't have what?

John W. Kluge:

"We can't advertise. Your people are our shoplifters." You know. [Laughs]

James H. Billington:

But by "secondary audience," what did they mean?

John W. Kluge:

Well, they meant that, you know, these were not very desirable consumers.

James H. Billington:

Okay. But not shoplifters?

John W. Kluge:

No. But you know, they're the dregs, you know.

James H. Billington:

Right. Right. So how did it escalate--

John W. Kluge:

We had it --

James H. Billington:

-- purchases to be something that at least gave --

John W. Kluge:

Well, see, the fact is, as the networks became more and more successful, more people wanted to get on the network, and we got the loose change. Well, we started with all kinds of things. A week of Bette Davis, a week of a woman star -- you were in New York at that time?

James H. Billington:

No, but __________ told me a little bit about it.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. So we started all kinds of things. We did a lot of things with BBC. I remember standing on the corner of the big department store giving $5,000 in cash to the head of our television, to give to the pilots that were flying to Hamburg. They wanted American dollars in cash to fly to Hamburg because Hamburg, the airport kept open -- so we got the tape on the Bolshoi, for example, or the Wells Ballet. In other words, we had to -- we even did bullfights from Mexico, which we had to drop. We introduced wrestling, which is now, you know, it's show business. And so --

James H. Billington:

Was it genuine wrestling?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah, but it probably was somewhat fake, too. I don't know. But it looked real, I can tell you.

James H. Billington:

When was that about?

John W. Kluge:

1962.

James H. Billington:

How did you see the opportunity when you got into this? When you moved behind just buying the first one, how did you see -- what was decisive in making you see the possibility of really developing --

John W. Kluge:

Well, firstly, television was a powerful tool. There was enough research to show that it would have eight times the impact of radio, of voice only. But of course, as it became more and more successful, buyers of time, instead of buying an hour, a half-hour, a quarter hour, they got a spot: a minute spot, a 30-second spot, a 15-second, 10-second. In other words, as the cost went up, they bought shorter and shorter messages. Well, as they bought shorter and shorter messages, they gave us more inventory also, you see. So it was -- the networks furnished the umbrella for our success.

James H. Billington:

Were motion pictures an important part of your --

John W. Kluge:

Absolutely. Absolutely.

James H. Billington:

-- early -- no, what I wanted to touch on here is, were they an important part of your early imaginative upbringing in the years in Detroit, or even in Germany, before you came over?

John W. Kluge:

No.

James H. Billington:

What was your first exposure to motion pictures, and how did they come into your portfolio, so to speak?

John W. Kluge:

Well, my first experience in motion pictures was that they were air conditioned, and they were cold, and that's why I went in there.

James H. Billington:

When was this? This was in New York?

John W. Kluge:

No, in Detroit.

James H. Billington:

In Detroit.

John W. Kluge:

I am not a motion picture fan, as such. I only see really a picture that, you know, for example, I didn't see "The Sound of Music," believe it or not, until the '80s. In other words, I'm not a movie buff. But I saw where movies, and our research showed, that movies were going to be an important fare --

James H. Billington:

Now, when was this research? This was --

John W. Kluge:

Back in the '60s and '70s. So Mary McKenna was our research director and, bless her soul -- she's still alive, she writes me once in awhile. She could make that research bend any way you wanted it. [Laughter]

John W. Kluge:

But she was very honest. The agencies liked her for her veracity.

James H. Billington:

The agencies being --

John W. Kluge:

The advertising agencies.

James H. Billington:

Right. But, I mean, apart from -- you went there because it was air conditioned in Detroit. Are there any films that stuck in your mind, or that gave you your sort of image of the visual media?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I -- frankly, I happen to be a newspaper reader, and I read three papers practically every day, whether it's in Europe or here. I'm really not a television viewer.

James H. Billington:

But how did you then, just as an investor or --

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

How did you get involved in the movies, and what led you into this?

John W. Kluge:

Well, the thing is that I have learned, what I like is not necessarily what other people like, so I'm much more interested in finding out what other people like. And the movies [are] what people like. Now, I went in the movie business, Orion Pictures, not because I wanted to go into the movie business, but I really was a white knight for a friend of mine, who -- and the first thing I know, we were in this thing to the tune of $700 million. So --

James H. Billington:

And this is roughly when?

John W. Kluge:

This is --

James H. Billington:

Early '90s, or --

John W. Kluge:

No, it's --

James H. Billington:

In the '80s sometime?

John W. Kluge:

In the '80s. Yeah.

James H. Billington:

Okay.

John W. Kluge:

And I sold the movie business. We threw them into bankruptcy, but everybody got paid. I mean, the talent, the trades people, everybody. The banks. And I sold that business to MGM.

James H. Billington:

Every technology, and particularly media technologies historically, give rise to unexpected and sometimes even negative effects in human society. Do you see any either actual or potential negative effects on American and world culture from the whole development of the broadcasting and communication technology --

John W. Kluge:

Yes. I think -- in the ratings war, we seem to cater to the lowest quintile. In other words, cultural events, or -- whether it's opera, whether it's ballet, the symphony, you mention it. You know, Texaco, for example, used to have an hour. Well, the chairman just loved what he was doing, but the audience was less and less and less. This outrageous thing where people -- I don't know, married, or whatever it is on television. You know, some of those things people gravitate to. And that's the one area I personally don't like about the medium. But the medium has a lot of other things to offer. The Discovery Channel, Biography. There are things, if you look for them, that are there. The only time I seem to watch television is when I'm on the treadmill. [Laughter]

James H. Billington:

How about your interest in sports and athletic endeavors, like soccer teams, things like that.

John W. Kluge:

Well, I --

James H. Billington:

At what point did that kick in, into your portfolio?

John W. Kluge:

I was on a boat going to Russia, to St. Petersburg. And Stu Subotnick, my associate, called me, and I said --

James H. Billington:

This would be when?

John W. Kluge:

Oh, maybe five years ago, six years ago. I said, I think soccer will eventually take hold in this country. And I turned down buying $150 million teams and all this sort of thing. I like to be on the ground floor of something, and no matter the losses, but at least you're building something in the future. I think sports today has become not only big business, but it's -- you know, it's nearly out of the reach of the common man. If you go to a hockey game, or a basketball game, or a football game, the tickets and by the time you park the car, and all this sort of thing, cost you a fortune. Soccer is still a family game. 35 percent of the participants in soccer are girls. And we're coming in the second generation now, where the fathers and the mothers played soccer, and their kids now, they're teachers to their kids. I think mothers are happier when their kid plays soccer than when he plays football, because of the injuries. And not only that, soccer is a very interesting game in the sense that the small guy can play it, because you have to use your brain quite often more than your physical --

James H. Billington:

I'm a little prejudiced in this regard since I played soccer myself --

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

-- both in this country and in England. And of course, one of the arguments is that you also have sixty minutes of playing time --

John W. Kluge:

Right.

James H. Billington:

You actually have eleven minutes of playing time in football. I mean, it's very intense.

John W. Kluge:

That's right.

James H. Billington:

But it's also a wonderful conditioning sport, and as you say, anybody any size can play it.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

So it does not put a premium on heaviness or height, as basketball does.

John W. Kluge:

Right.

James H. Billington:

One of the things that you're involved in in both radio and television and billboard advertising movies, and various other enterprises, you have an instinctive grasp of the role of advertising in the American economy. You're also helping the Library of Congress develop a strategy, which has gained the favor of the advertising council. Now, did you ever play a direct role in developing advertising campaigns or strategies for any of your media businesses? And if so, it would be interesting to know what some examples might be. Or for any other business in which you're involved.

John W. Kluge:

Well, I guess I've played a roll, but I can't remember specifically, where -- I'm sure I've had a lot of input early on. You know, early on, I designed packages. And the funny thing is, I went by a place 40 years later, and there, on the shelf, was a package I designed.

James H. Billington:

What --

John W. Kluge:

This was for printers. You see, a printer usually has a lot of ink, and he dirties the package, whether he might have wedding announcements, whatever he had -- and what this was, this was a black package with silver stripes through it, and it was Precision Products, whatever. And the point is, it was pragmatic, because the printer -- you wouldn't see the ink. And then, on top of that, the paper was laminated, so you could wipe it off. [END TAPE 2, SIDE B; BEGIN TAPE 3, SIDE A]

John W. Kluge:

I have to tell you a story about that. You know, I started the food brokerage business and the coffee business with the first --

James H. Billington:

Now when was this, roughly?

John W. Kluge:

-- crystallized coffee. Holiday Coffee came out of Cambridge, Massachusetts. It was National Research. And I started it here in Washington, called Holiday Coffee. And this was -- what year was that? 1951. And do you remember when the Post and the -- let's see, now. The Post and the Evening Star merged?

James H. Billington:

Oh, yes. I remember that.

John W. Kluge:

That first day, that paper was this thick. And I had a full page of Holiday Coffee. And each jar, they were all around the page, and of course, the middle was advertised. And each one of them -- A and P, Safeway and all the different things. And now American stores, Acme. And as you know in readership, the right hand side, upper corner, is where the most important news comes. Well, I put Acme there, a blank. Because they wanted one free with one.

James H. Billington:

They wanted --

John W. Kluge:

They wanted one free case with one case that they bought, and I wouldn't do that. So I went over to their headquarters in Baltimore -- I went over there, and I showed them the ad. He said, "What's the blank?" I said, "You know, it's funny you should ask me. Everybody asks me why I have the blank there." I said, "That's for American stores, but they want one free with one, and I won't do it." He says, "You little son of a bitch, get out of here." [Laughter]

John W. Kluge:

So I went out. But three or four days before the ad ran, he called me over, and he said, "Okay." Now, co-op advertising. They wanted one, whatever it was, they wanted twice that. And I erased that, sent it on just normal to Cambridge, and that's how American stores, they were the last ones to fill the ad. I was the first one in pickles -- Lang pickles. I decided you could sell pickles in a five gallon jar, which was big. And then I said to the manufacturer, I said, "Let's put in the ad -- 'essence of dill'." And one of the printer's in the Washington Post dropped the essence on the floor, and the whole place smelled of dill. And the next union contract, the Washington Post, they couldn't use any essence any more. [Laughter]

James H. Billington:

Now, in your experience with marketing of all kinds of different products, you must acquire some sense of the thinking of ordinary Americans, beyond just "Will they buy this?" or "Will they go for that?"

John W. Kluge:

Yes.

James H. Billington:

What would be some of your reflections over quite a long and distinguished career of involvement in the marketing and the trying to connect with the American public, through the media, and through advertising, and through your marketing -- and in a variety of different fields. What observations do you have about the average American that might --

John W. Kluge:

Well, I think the -- I think people want to be amused. People want to feel important in the products they buy. See, blacks in this country are much more brand conscious than the whites. Much more brand conscious. I don't know whether you know that. For example, in the supermarket business, I always look at the shelves. What can you do if you represent a product in a certain category that jumps out at you without offending you? I'll give you an example. I used to represent the International Silver Company in polish in supermarkets. A Safeway buyer in Washington said to me, "You know, people have to go to a jewelry store to get the International Silver Polish." Well, when you go in the jewelry store -- a woman, you know, you don't want to buy just maybe International Silver Polish. You might -- you'd look maybe a little bit, like, "What the hell are you coming in here for, just to buy the polish? You know, we're selling jewelry." Well, I went up to International Silver Polish. I didn't know at the time, but the Drackett Company out of Ohio has 165 salesmen. And they were after this account, doing it also in the supermarket. So they were interviewed, and the Vice President said to him, "Well, you know, they wanted advertising, they wanted a contract. They want a lot of different things." Now, they interviewed me. "How many salesmen do you have?" I said to the Vice President, "You're looking at him." He said, "Do you want a contract?" I said, "No, I don't want to contract." I said, "Give me three or four months, if I don't do you any good, you don't even have to fire me. I'd just know it's over." But he wouldn't advertise? I said, "I don't want to advertise." I said, "Do you think your advertising is going to make a woman hot to trot to polish her silver? Forget it. She hates to polish silver. But what I want you to do is, under each piece of silver, put, 'For best results, buy International Silver Polish.' That's it. That's all I want. "Now, the other thing. I want a bottle that's high style. Black top, pink. The polish has to be pink. And the label in script -- in script. And then it's on the shelf." Do you know what? They gave me the account. I only hired four people, a girl in the office, a man on the road, an accountant, and, I guess, some girl for the phone. And when I dissolved that company, they had $12 million of one stock alone. I put that in 40,000 supermarkets. What I'm trying to tell you is that marketing -- and more and more executives are starting to come from the marketing side -- you know, a lot of them used to come from the financial side, or even the legal side. But the thing is, I think, after awhile, you get a feeling of identifying with people. I was a pioneer of Fritos back in 1947, and so I've had a lot of experience in different kinds of things.

James H. Billington:

What attracted you to Fritos?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I don't know.

James H. Billington:

Did it exist --

John W. Kluge:

No.

James H. Billington:

-- or did you imagine it before it existed? Or was it already there?

John W. Kluge:

No, no. It started with two brothers and their mother in San Antonio, Texas. Then they moved to Dallas. And Fritos was just sort of percolating -- it was in Texas. And I went down there to get the New England franchise from Presque Isle, Maine down to Stanford. And you know, you learn a lot. And one of the things you learn is the typical New Englander doesn't need anything. I tell you -- All those tough periods make you more confident as you grow older, and maybe go into something that isn't as tough. For example, I was a pioneer of cellular phones back in 1981. That's 20 years ago. Twenty years ago, people would say, "Cellular phones? What is it? Radio phones? What is that?" Well, you know what it is today. Why did I go into it? Very simple reason. In 1951, when I was first in the brokerage business, I had one of these phones in Washington. I could never get a hold of anybody. You know, 3:00 o'clock, 2:00 o'clock in the morning, yes. But it was always busy. And that was the single thing, to me. Plus the fact that I felt Americans want to communicate, and they're always on the go. And just some simple idea like that made me borrow $300 million to go into the business. You know.

James H. Billington:

You once described yourself as an operator rather than an investor.

John W. Kluge:

Right.

James H. Billington:

What did you mean by that?

John W. Kluge:

Well, in other words, I feel --

James H. Billington:

Most people would think of you, I suspect, as an investor, essentially.

John W. Kluge:

No. No, I actually feel more comfortable being an operator. An investor is kind of a vicarious thing. I like to be hands on. And I hadn't been hands on in the last few years. But I would never be a banker. I wouldn't like to be a banker. I want to operate something. And I feel happiest doing that. Sure.

James H. Billington:

Are there any of these operations that have made you especially happy, apart from the question of how profitable they were? I mean, what have you had particular -- I won't ask you what your favorite operation was --

John W. Kluge:

Well.

James H. Billington:

-- but what's an example of something that you really just thoroughly enjoyed, quite apart from its monetary --

John W. Kluge:

Well, we went into digitizing graphics 39 years ago.

James H. Billington:

Did what? I'm sorry.

John W. Kluge:

Digitized graphics.

James H. Billington:

Oh, graphics. Right.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. And today, you see them in Times Square. You see them in the __________. You see them all over the world. And now you're starting to see them in trucks. For example, if you see a giant truck, you might see one with our graphics on it. Take, for example, we worked this out with Peter Max, the artist, when we were exhibiting in Spain a few years ago. The graphics there were our graphics, you know. We have plants in Australia, in South America, and all over the world.

James H. Billington:

As you know, of course, the discourse of today's business world uses the word "globalization" all the time. There's constant reference to and even popular acceptance of the idea that the economy is basically global now. Of course, your own portfolio indicates continuing worldwide interests. When did you first have a sense of the emerging global economy, the global marketplace? Was there a specific historic event, or business decision, or acquisition that you made, that crystallized your own sense of involvement in this phenomenon?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I think the United States is a big market, and for many, many years, people were very happy just being in this market. But the world is much bigger, and in other words, there was a certain timidness to go abroad. Now, major companies today, and certainly [in the] last six, seven, ten years, maybe, don't want any product. They really are constantly looking for something that has a worldwide market, rather than just a regionalized market. For obvious reasons. The automobile business is certainly an example of it. And there's going to be much more consolidation. The telecommunications market is a worldwide market. And you're going to see more -- you might see a company like Sprint merging with another company down the road. You might see a company like MCI Worldcom merging with another company. You saw where the telephone companies are, you know, basically there are three telephone companies in the United States, large. There's Verizon, there's SPC, and there's -- which is now US West and the guy from Denver -- Phillips.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. And you know, then you have Bell South. They're trying to get out of their box. And you're going to, for example, Vedafone is now the largest in the world of cellular phones. And that comes out of San Francisco, originally. And it's a European company now.

James H. Billington:

But in terms of your own personal sense of this, was there a historic event, or a particular period, or a particular acquisition that you made that really qualitatively increased your own interest, or has that been an interest consistently right from the start?

John W. Kluge:

I think it's been an interest because I'm European.

James H. Billington:

Of course. And I was wondering.

John W. Kluge:

And I've traveled extensively the world, and somehow or other, I really think some of the competition worldwide is easier than the competition in this country. You know, the competition in this country is pretty fierce.

James H. Billington:

Let's see. Two years ago, you invested in PhoneFree, which is an internet protocol telephone. Well, that's another stage in your long investment in various forms of communication. Do you see this new technology as being in any way similar in growth potential to your successful 1980s investment in cellular?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I'm not handling that, and I don't know just where that is at the moment.

James H. Billington:

I see.

John W. Kluge:

I really don't. Now that you're mentioning it, I'm going to find out. But I'll tell you -- I'll give you an example. We have Metromedia Fiber which is worldwide, and we got them billions of dollars, three billion, I think. And they ran out of money here. And my $30 million -- we got $100-some-odd million. We got our money out. But the rest of my stuff in there was worth three-and-a-half billion. Do you know what it's worth now? It's worth about 200-some-odd million. So David, who is on the board, and I'm on the board. I said, "David, you know, you and I have to do something." So I put up $175 million, David $20 million. We got banks to put -- anyhow, we got a package of 600-and-some-odd million. Because you know, I believe in what they're doing. They are unique, and their accounts --

James H. Billington:

Okay, again, being in this --

John W. Kluge:

They're unique, because they're optic fiber. They're a colocator. They manage things with the internet. I think one of their people came down to see -- we do quite a bit of business with the government, and big accounts -- we're doing 30 percent of the business for Microsoft, and we have Oracle and -- we built a facility in London, AOL. They took 50 percent of the facility. In other words, we're about 96 percent built out. So in other words, pretty heavy investments. Overseas, as well. In other words, you saw the e-commerce companies fall on the wayside, but some of them are there. You know, Ebay is there. A number of the companies bellied up -- I don't have to tell you. But Sears Roebuck is getting there, Wal-Mart. Let me tell you. Toyota, General Motors, Ford, Daimler-Chrysler, they all are going to be on a web site. This comes out of Holland. And what you have to do, if you're a supplier to a motor car company, you -- they post their requirements, and you respond to them on the internet. And you know, they say it's going to save them $1,000 a car. You know, the profits today on cars, a lot of the companies are losing money. Every car that they're producing, they're losing money. So the salesman coming up to the Ford plant, in other words, he responds. They have nothing to do with him. In other words, "Here. These are our requirements." And of course, they'll only do business with people that are highly responsible. So the internet, the enterprise business of the internet is coming to life, and that's the area we're in. I feel we're going to make it, but you know, it's been pretty treacherous.

James H. Billington:

Just a couple of more questions here. In an interview published in Forbes in 1996, you're quoted as saying, "The Plaza Hotel, that's not my style." That sort of suggests a consciously sort of down to earth philosophy of life. Maybe rooted in -- what? In your --

John W. Kluge:

Well, I feel --

James H. Billington:

Is this Detroit, or is this early New York, or --

John W. Kluge:

No -- I feel always uncomfortable with the high end of the market. You know, because too many people are down here. It might be profitable, but I wouldn't be in the luxury business. I don't feel comfortable in the luxury business. And so we had two hotels in New York. And two-and-a-half years ago, we sold them. Everybody said we're foolish to have sold them. Now, they weren't in the real low end. They were in the middle. One was on the East Side and one was on the West Side. And they were both on 63rd Street. And people two and a half years ago said we were foolish. We shouldn't -- the business is going to go on and on. And I said, "Yeah. It goes on and on until it breaks." Well, I don't have to tell you, the hotel business in New York is not a happy situation, and you know, people forget when you sell something which looks like you're a fool and you're selling it because the market is there and all this, I think. Let me tell you -- It's easy to find buyers when they think the seller is a fool. You know?

James H. Billington:

Uh-huh.

John W. Kluge:

So the Plaza Hotel -- you know, there were only $15 million put into the Plaza Hotel. The money came from -- I think it's either Singapore of Kuala Lumpur, and the Saudi Prince. They only put $15 million. The rest is credit, I guess.

James H. Billington:

Who were in the variety of encounters you've had, not only with business people but with statesmen and on a global scale. Are there a couple who have actually influenced -- I wouldn't want to inventory who all your friends are, but people that you feel interaction with has been a particularly important part of your life and career?

John W. Kluge:

Well, one was the teacher in whose home I lived, Gracia Gray DaRatt.

James H. Billington:

The name again?

John W. Kluge:

Gracia Gray DaRatt.

James H. Billington:

This was in Detroit.

John W. Kluge:

This was in Detroit.

James H. Billington:

She was a high school teacher. And another one was a man in -- a trustee at Columbia. His name was Teddy Prentice. He was the discoverer of what [enabled] the skyscrapers to be built. He was an engineer. Also, Alan B. Crowe, who was head of the Detroit Economic Club, and there were others. Judge Camberlain in Detroit. I remember. And these -- you know, these were very impressionable days. I was maybe 15 at the time. And real estate was really down in the dumps. And there was a very well-known realtor. And the judge was head of the Detroit City Law School -- [BEGIN TAPE 3, SIDE B]

John W. Kluge:

I could do it technically, but morally, I can't do it.

James H. Billington:

So -- what was that?

John W. Kluge:

It was something about a real estate transaction.

James H. Billington:

I see. I see.

John W. Kluge:

The point is, these were sign posts to me. And it's not how successful it is, or you are, but did you do it without being either a con artist or a person who was so burned with success that anything goes. I don't feel comfortable with "anything goes." Never have, never will. And these are people on the way that really, you know, the teacher said an interesting thing to me one day. She said, "John, you know, you're one of the few people I know that can learn from other people without going through the experience." In other words, if I felt philosophically what they said was so important, so meaningful, I could apply it to myself. It became important to do that. That doesn't mean I want to be a goody-goody, but I certainly try being one.

James H. Billington:

I think, I mean, both that point that you just made, and your earlier point that you have a certain attraction, not just at the high end of the economy, but to where ordinary people live, and what they'd really like to get and have, is very unique and appealing. At the same time, because of your involvement in the high entertainment world, you have also been exposed to entertainers, to the public culture --

John W. Kluge:

Oh, yes.

James H. Billington:

and to New York. Many people think there's a clash of these two cultures in this country. That is to say, there's a culture war, so called, between the media, the Hollywood media, and so forth, and ordinary Americans. You have a deep understanding and experience with both these worlds, and as you describe it, really a fundamental commitment to the world of ordinary Americans, what they'd like to have, what they think and feel. But you know this other world as well. Do you think there are culture wars in America, or do you think there's --

John W. Kluge:

Well --

James H. Billington:

-- or that this is an overdone concept?

John W. Kluge:

I think it's a little overdone. Because there are people in Hollywood that are very much with their feet on the ground. It's some of these new starlets or stars, that think they not only invented the world, the world couldn't go on without them, and [they] make great demands. I am East Coast oriented, and I'm really not a West Coast person, although I know a lot of those people. And I remember when I was subjected to Sammy Davis, Jr., had a bowl of cocaine in his living room -- in other words, I would avoid that kind of thing. I was never overwhelmed by these people. Because I know one thing. That people go through the same experiences. They might be well, they get sick. You know, in other words, there are so many things that are common among people, and I'm not impressed with either money or power. What impresses me are people -- like I told Tony Bennett, who I've known for nearly 40 years, I said, "You know, Tony, the thing that really impresses me with you is you haven't changed since the first day I met you. You haven't changed at all." And I see him, you know, in New York, or I see him -- he performed one night in Munich, and my wife and I had him over for lunch, and he loves to paint. I've got to bring him down here. When he goes to Japan, he loves going into the Japanese gardens -- So he paints. Down in Florida -- he's been to our house. You know, it's hard, when people get so much adulation, to be yourself. When we go through the house, I have a Dresden horse. I brought that over as a child of eight. I look at that horse. I know exactly where I came from. So I can't float too much. You know. It might only be a Dresden horse, but it reminds me of my having it going through Ellis Island, and so on and so forth. And the balance that people need to be themselves, regardless of their power role, or whether we might be is -- it's hard, it's hard. Especially in show business. But the real pros aren't fooled. They've been through the ringer, and they know. They aren't usually fooled.

James H. Billington:

You said at some point, maybe at a number of points, that what you really learn from and build on is not your successes but those things that were more difficult and --

John W. Kluge:

That's right. I really think that you succeed by the obstacles you overcome. Nothing, nothing is more detrimental than to be successful early in life, because it seems like you wrote the book. But when you have to go through a lot of tough times, that's when you build up a body of knowledge and of acumen that stays with you and you're not carried away.

James H. Billington:

That the tough time that you had, do you consider it a learning experience?

John W. Kluge:

Well, yeah.

James H. Billington:

[inaudible].

John W. Kluge:

Well, in the businesses I was in early, they were very tough businesses. When you start a radio -- even back in '46, when you start a radio station, it's tough. I never knew what national advertising was. Starting a brokerage business, and the coffee business, you've got to be a little sugar, but you learn things. You know, coffee is a very tough business. And when I was in Fritos, for example, in New England, they thought maybe I had a new shoe polish, you know. But I do think early experiences that are not easy, because when you're young, and you have major success, you think that, you know, that's going to be your role in life.

James H. Billington:

That leads naturally to a question about the new generations coming along of people that have very young made a great deal of money, a great deal of seeming success in the business world. Do you think that that's a danger for the future of America, that these people don't have as much sense of perspective, perhaps, as an older generation that had to go through tough times?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I think some of those people you're talking about, such success, today aren't quite in that role.

James H. Billington:

--speaking of October 2001.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

-- yes.

John W. Kluge:

But I do think --

James H. Billington:

Are we becoming decadent, or do we risk becoming decadent --

John W. Kluge:

Well --

James H. Billington:

--losing our total--

John W. Kluge:

I don't think we're becoming decadent, but let's put it this way. September 11th is going to change a lot of people in this country. Never did we think we could be invaded on our own soil. We are part of the global community, but we never thought of being a part of that --

James H. Billington:

Aspect.

John W. Kluge:

-- aspect of it. So I think, again, as some of the people that have an early success, some of them will make it in this country, that they recognize their responsibility, that they can make a contribution to our culture outside of our economy. Because, you know, man doesn't live on bread alone. I don't have to tell you that. There has been, I don't know whether you feel this way, but there has been a somewhat perceived or not perceived attitude that the humanities and the cultural side of this country is a sort of second place importance, and kind of beneath the economic side. I find that disturbing. And I hope -- you know, for example, a lot of people in Europe don't have the means Americans have, but my God, they got a lot of culture. They got a lot of thirst for knowledge, for appreciation of art and music. It's absolutely amazing to me how a number of the young people in Europe know music, know opera, know ballet. You know. Which is -- it's kind of a -- well, it's there, but I don't think Americans are as anxious to be a participant in that world.

James H. Billington:

Well, that leads naturally to -- I have to step out a little bit of just being the passive interviewer and pay tribute to you as a patron of the very thing you're talking about, both your alma mater, Columbia, that's very understandable, but also to the Library of Congress, of which you really didn't have any major connection until, I guess, maybe about 13 years or so ago now. But your benefaction to the Library has been unequaled in its long history, and I don't want to overpersonalize this, as I'm acting mainly in the capacity of somebody interviewing you -- but that aspect of your interests, it's very impressive to take up a new interest after so many other things have already been established in your career, and I would have to declare an interest here, and declare a very great sense of personal and institutional gratitude on behalf of the Library. But what is your thinking a little bit more on the culture, that this is more important in Europe, more recognized, perhaps better supported? Do you see that aspect of American life? You've also, of course, been the founder and chairman of the Madison Council, which was the new effort of the private sector to support a public institution, to make more use of a public institution? Maybe -- you might just say a few words about your involvement, because it's certainly been very historic in terms of the history of the Library, and it's been very unique in the sense that this wasn't an institution in which you had an older, or longer, association.

John W. Kluge:

Well, I tell you very frankly, when the day my obituary is written, any economic success will be secondary. It's these outside activities that give meaning to my life, and give meaning to my contribution. You know, I've been in business for, let's say, 60 years, almost 65 years. But I have to confess to you. I really don't like business. And the reason I'm in so many businesses is because I just want to be challenged in doing things outside just making widgets every day. I've had an interest in art for many years and I must tell you, I've had economic reversals. I had one reversal where I had to sell Jackson Pollacks. I had to sell Miros. I had to sell Kandinskys, you name it. The Rothkos, et cetera. And this was the only thing I could get a hold of, because when you owe a billion dollars, let's say, at 22 percent interest, I don't have to tell you, your hair doesn't only get gray, it falls out. And then I had to start over again. But I think -- and maybe I've told you before, my foundation will play a part in the education of minorities. I've done it, for example, with the University of Virginia, with Columbia, with Rockefeller University and others. I said to David Rockefeller, "David, I will do some things for Rockefeller University, and this is what I will do." I will have given them, by the way, $10 million. And I shouldn't even talk about it, because I said, "I give this anonymous. I don't want my name attached to it." And one day I went over to Rockefeller University, and David was there, and the president of Rockefeller University. And this one boy said to me, "Mr. Kluge, why are you doing this with minorities?" And I said, "You know, nobody has ever asked me that question, but now that you ask me," I said, "I came here as a immigrant. And whether you know so or not, an immigrant is a minority." And that's probably why that gave me the thought of doing this. I didn't want to do something which is a me-too kind of thing. And Columbia, of course, which I have been a graduate of, would have 200 minority students every year with a student body of 4,000, which means 5 percent, will be a Kluge scholar. And the first year I did this, which was 13, 14 years ago, I saw some of these people, and I thought to myself, "What am I doing? I mean, I must hate myself?" But as it went along the program got stronger and stronger, and earlier this year, I saw a number of, maybe 60-some odd, I was absolutely amazed at the high standard that they have, and that comes from the selection. And the president who now is leaving, and there will be a new president at Columbia who comes from the University of Michigan -- I don't know him never met him -- but the old president said we want to expand it to 400 people. I said, you know, "I don't want that, because I want it tough for people to meet this standard. I don't want to lower the standard. I want people to come so that down the road, those people will be role models." And that's what this country needs. It needs role models of minorities -- not just in music, not just in sports, but in a lot of other places.

James H. Billington:

Well, you know, you've done very much the same thing in the Library with this leadership program, which is disproportionately ___________ minorities.

John W. Kluge:

Yes.

James H. Billington:

One of the things that happens, it's very interesting, is that with the opening up of other professions like law that weren't available to minorities before, many of -- so that the number of people in our great libraries, which are in our big cities, where the minority populations are, the number of minorities being formally trained has decreased precipitously. So you stepped to the fore and have helped us develop a leadership program that has had exactly the same effect. We get hundreds of applications for the small numbers chosen and it's been inspirational and important. So we are in your debt. But another interesting thing you said, when you spoke recently to the new entering class of our leadership program, you commented on the interest, which is something that's been a feature, it seems to me, of your business campaign, as well as of your philanthropy, that you're always interested in doing the next thing, the change -- you've been a kind of agent of change and of development rather than of mere repetition. You said you didn't want to do me-too things, and it strikes me, certainly, that your philanthropy with the Library, both starting the digital library, starting international exhibits with the Vatican exhibit which you enabled us to have, and then creating this new Kluge Center and prize so that the world of Greece comes into Rome, that the world of memory and sort of excitement at the human sciences comes into this city totally preoccupied with present-time and politics. All of this is innovation. So we really, I think, and the country, both in the business sense and in the cultural sense, has a -- do you think we're in danger of losing that innovative passion, as you look at the younger generation, whether it's in business or in other fields?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I think when people come from a background of need, depending on the personality, and they're driven, they will innovate. But you know, Jim, if you weren't the Librarian of the Library of Congress, I never would have given this gift to the Library. I feel so comfortable in your development of this idea. The money is inert. It's the idea that is supported by the money that becomes -- or implemented -- that becomes important. The Council of Scholars, the Senior Scholars, the Junior Scholars. And you are injecting the quality which is going to give the Kluge Prize a reputation. The money is not the reputation. It's the quality of the person you select, and you're going to go through various steps, and I think giving -- I was talking to -- who was I talking to? Oh, yeah. I guess it was Henry Kissinger. And I said, "You know, this prize is given every two years." He said, "You know, that's a very good idea, because a year is a short time, and people then are under pressure compromising. There's a much longer period of thought and reflection that, every two years, comes about than not every year." So I think that's important. You know, filling out numbers is easy. But you know, I've always been in pursuit of excellence. And one of the few talents I might have is, I sense that in other people. And Jim, you have it in spades. And I feel honored to be able to be a part of this process. And I also feel very strongly that having the very careful selection, and then having a prize connected with that name, will enhance not only that person's reputation, but the field he represents, whether it's religion, philosophy, history, whatever it might be in the humanities. And it isn't always the scientists, it isn't always the technocrat. It's because these areas or the humanities, is an area that when all is said and done -- [END TAPE 3, SIDE B; BEGIN TAPE 4, SIDE A]

James H. Billington:

Well, I think that's a beautiful note to end on, and you don't have to record my thanking you, but I really do. That's very moving and touching. The real honor is ours to be the recipients of not just your benefactions, but your sense of change, your sense of change, and your wonderful ability to galvanize a group together and give them a sense of uplift, as you have with the Madison Council, and as you did when you met with that leadership group again. They were deeply touched by your story, and we are honored to be the recipients and the holders of this record that we --

John W. Kluge:

Jim, don't you feel those people that, ten people that were in the room the other day, are, you know, you could just feel the energy there.

James H. Billington:

Oh, yeah. No, no. It's terrific energy, that you've generated. And already there are three classes stirring up the place. And, you know, [inaudible] Don Scott saying we're going to do [inaudible] and so forth. [Now], he's got some troops. It's not just a general --

John W. Kluge:

Yes.

James H. Billington:

-- issuing orders. And so I --

John W. Kluge:

See, an institution as big as the Library of Congress, to warm them up takes a great deal of thought and of leadership. And you know, one of the girls said that she -- you know, she wants to get out of the box. Well, the point is, if they have the qualities of leadership, they'll be out of the box. But they have to - in other words, they have to be ready. And if they're ready -- see, I don't have to tell you to take advantage of something, you have to really be ready. I had all kinds of ideas in college, but I didn't know how to raise money, and yet, those ideas became a reality. I have always been an idea person. As a matter of fact, I live in the world of ideas, but I float and then I want to put it in practice. I hate ideas that aren't implemented. I just do. I just -- I'm co-chair in New York with someone else, Mel Karmazin who's the chief operating officer of Viacom. Mel used to work for me for eleven years, and he's a dynamo. I just dictated a letter, I won't be there, but -- I wouldn't want to work for Mel, but he is -- in other words, he's a tough boss. But you know what? He's tougher on himself. But he's fair. And he's the kind of guy you'd want to have next to you in a foxhole. Because you know he'd carry his weight. When he first put Infinity with CBS, I called him up and I said, "Mel, I want to have lunch with you." And so we had lunch. I said, "What are you going to do to bring CBS television," which was way down, you know, and to bring it up. He said, "Well," he said, "I'm just going to put more salesmen on the street." You know. In other words, until he could improve the programming.

James H. Billington:

Uh-huh.

John W. Kluge:

But Jesus. He's a dynamo. He's at a desk at 6:00 in the morning. There's no television guy that I know that's at his desk at 6:00 in the morning. And, I tell you, he doesn't particularly take the perks. He's not interested in the perks. He doesn't care whether his office is down in the basement somewhere. But I don't know whether Sumner Redstone appreciates him or not, but Sumner has a big ego you know.

James H. Billington:

You know, one thing I didn't ask you about, and you may not want to talk about it too much, but just out of curiosity, the public figures you've met outside of the business world, you've seen a lot of them and talked with them and met with them. Are there any that impressed you particularly, or that you felt all uplifted or inspired or fascinated by? You've mentioned the King of Spain, I know, as being somebody that you liked.

John W. Kluge:

Well, Schevardnadze, I think a lot of. I went down to Tblisi several times, and at one time I had to give a little speech, and I said, "He's the George Washington of Georgia." You know, he --

James H. Billington:

What is it that impresses you about Schevardnadze, apart from his historic role.

John W. Kluge:

Well, firstly, you know, he's not afraid of anything.

James H. Billington:

He's a very, very courageous man.

John W. Kluge:

Oh, God. The attempts on his life have been numerous. I tell you, I liked very much the King of Jordan, Hussein. By the way, just today I got a letter of thanks from Queen Noor. I like her father, by the way. He's a member --

James H. Billington:

He's a lovely guy.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. He is. And I liked him. I was trying to think who in public life is really outstanding. Oh. You know, he used to be the president of Finland. I can't think of his name.

James H. Billington:

Ahtsaari?

John W. Kluge:

No, no. He's terrific.

James H. Billington:

An earlier president?

John W. Kluge:

This is earlier. He got Alzheimers, but he was a great skier.

James H. Billington:

Oh, Urho Kekkonen?

John W. Kluge:

Right.

James H. Billington:

Oh, yes.

John W. Kluge:

He was quite a character. But this [Ahtsaari] -- he left the presidency just recently. I think he's very, very good. He was very good as a president, but he's been a mediator. He's a very solid citizen. I'm trying to think -- I've known every president except FDR. I enjoyed Truman, but you know. I'll tell you, he turned out to be a better president than people thought he was going to be.

James H. Billington:

Do you have any especially vivid -- this will sort of be the end, because we've really gone long. I want to give you a little rest before dinner. But are there any particular things that you've felt about presidents, or experiences that you've had with one, that is particularly memorable in your recollections?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I'm trying to --

James H. Billington:

Or other prominent people.

John W. Kluge:

Nixon was -- we had Klein working for us, and we went to see Nixon. And -- Klein used to work for the White House, you know, for Nixon.

James H. Billington:

Yeah.

John W. Kluge:

And after we left -- then the tapes came out, and [Nixon] said all kinds of unkind things about Klein, you know. In other words --

James H. Billington:

This was Herb Klein?

John W. Kluge:

Yes. Herb Klein.

James H. Billington:

Yes.

John W. Kluge:

I think he's still alive. He lives in San Diego. He's with a newspaper there.

James H. Billington:

Do you feel from your contact with people in public life that we have as much quality of public life as there is in the business world, or do you think that there's a -- how would you describe the difference between the leaders and the private and the public --

John W. Kluge:

Well, you know, every politician is not a statesman. And there's entirely too much effort to be re-elected. Now, the Byrds were very active in Virginia politics, and they ran a very clean state. I don't have to tell you that certain governors, there used to be a governor who was a Mormon -- you remember him? In Michigan.

James H. Billington:

Oh, Romney.

John W. Kluge:

Romney. George Romney.

James H. Billington:

George Romney.

John W. Kluge:

And he -- you know, there isn't the forthrightness among our politicos that maybe years ago there was. It seems like they don't want to step on anybody's toes. So finally, they are -- not only do they compromise, they've crawled into the woodwork. And there isn't the intellectual honesty. I'm just reading -- you're talking about corporate. I know Jack Welch. I've known him many years before he ever became president of GE. I'm reading -- I haven't finished the book. I just finished Hughes -- Howard Hughes.

James H. Billington:

Oh, yes.

John W. Kluge:

But you know, these corporate books, I really think they're a waste of time. I would never write a book. It's too much "I, I, I," you know. And you know, "I did this, and I did that." So there's a homogenizing, too much in the corporate life they want to stay on top of their perks. In the political life, they want to be re-elected. And you don't have some of the forthrightness that you used to have, because a number of those people in the past didn't give a damn whether they were re-elected or not. Now, re-election is more important than making a stand. You know? Which might not be popular. I've known -- he's a Senator from Virginia. He used to be -- he was deputy of the Navy. You know, he --

James H. Billington:

John Warner?

John W. Kluge:

John. Yes.

James H. Billington:

John Warner.

John W. Kluge:

I've known John since he was going to Georgetown [University]. So you know how long that is. Now, when John took a stand on, you know, the fellow that --

James H. Billington:

Oliver North.

John W. Kluge:

Oliver North.

James H. Billington:

Yes, right.

John W. Kluge:

That took some guts, and he was highly criticized by the Republicans. But I think -- you know, he's a liberal. The lawyer that handled the contras, Paul Weiss of the law firm. And he said to me -- of course, he's dead now -- he could have done a lot of stuff on North, his psychiatric record and all that. He could have brought all that into court, but he didn't. But I don't know what -- what is North doing now?

James H. Billington:

I think he's on TV. He's a commentator.

John W. Kluge:

Oh, that's right. That's right.

James H. Billington:

He's sort of on one of these cable shows, cable organizations --

John W. Kluge:

Right. Now I remember.

James H. Billington:

Uh-huh.

John W. Kluge:

But you know, it's like the Arab world. The average Muslim is not a terrorist, as you know. In other words, the extremists are always -- they get all the attention. In this country as well, you know, you've got some conservatives that, on the one hand, and the Republicans are tarred with them. But then the Democrats are tarred with the liberals. But you know, I don't have to tell you, [Dick] Gephardt is the pawn of the labor party, Gephardt. I don't know. I've never -- I have to tell you. I know he's a Democrat. I've never been very fond of him. Over a period of years, the -- I'm not so sure -- and he's been down here a few times. And Trent Lott is a strong person, as he ought to be. I don't know. You may feel differently.

James H. Billington:

Well, I don't want to run you through all the political figures, but I think -- in fact, I think, as they used to say in Eastern Europe, you have over-fulfilled your norm here. It's been marvelous, and we thank you so much, and I think we ought to give you a little bit of time to catch a breather.

John W. Kluge:

Well, as a matter of fact, 7:00 o'clock, Marjorie is going to be at the -- [General conversation]

James H. Billington:

Thank you. Thank you very, very much.

John W. Kluge:

You bet. [END OF INTERVIEW] [Begin session II, October 13, 2001]

James H. Billington:

This is Session II of an interview with Mr. John W. Kluge, held here in Charlottesville on October 13th, 2001. Mr. Kluge, your central preoccupation of your many, many business activities was the founding and establishment of Metromedia. Could you just give us a little idea of how you got into it, what your vision was, and how it worked out?

John W. Kluge:

Barney Baliban owned this company, Paramount Pictures, had negative control of the Dumont Company. Now, Dumont was divided into two parts. The manufacturing and the television part on the other hand. And, they owned Channel 5 in Washington and Channel 5 in New York, and WNEW AM in New York. And, I think FM. At the time I came into the picture, which was at the end of '58. As a matter of fact, it was January 5th, 1959, that I became Chairman of the Board of the television company. And --

James H. Billington:

Was it called Metromedia then?

John W. Kluge:

No, it was not. It was called Metropolitan Broadcasting. And, what I wanted was a name, well, going back, I had one job. I was Chairman of the Board. And, Chairman of the Board only had one power and that was to call together the Board of Directors. And, then I realized what was happening in the company. And, I went to the various investment bankers. I said, "Let me tell you, I know what's happening in this company. All I want is the four million dollars back," which was part mine and part other people's. "And, I'll walk away." "Or, if you don't do that, I'm going to give you a fight that you'll remember the rest of your life." And, you know investment bankers and lawyers, when they heard that, they didn't know what information I had.

James H. Billington:

Why would you, well, why would you give them a fight?

John W. Kluge:

Because, they were on the Board and they should know what was happening in the company. They were on the board. So, anyhow, they agreed that, I didn't want this job. I certainly didn't want to run a public company, necessarily. So, we had a board meeting, a special board meeting. And, the president was given more and more powers. And, of course, the president had a friend on the board, who supported him. They voted for all of this. The last item on the agenda was to change the president. And, I became president. And, as we went along, we went into outdoor and some other things. And, I wanted a name that was encompassing and yet made some determination as to the core of our business. And, I remember having a prolonged argument with one of the members of the Board, Armin Erf, who was an investment banker. He wanted "Metro Media" as a name. Capital M e-t-r-o. Capital M e-d-i-a. I said, "No. It's got to be one word." And, that's how Metromedia got started. So, then, we went into the telephone business and the outdoor business, of course. We went into live entertainment like the Ice Capades, the Harlem Globetrotters and a number of other things. And I operated as chief executive from the beginning of 1959 to the time I took the company private, which was around 1980. So, I operated it twenty-one years. Now, why did I take it private? Because, here I was working for twenty-one years, and the stock was just going nowhere and it was, it went from sixty-nine cents to five hundred and sixty-five dollars a share. But, then, when I went into the phone business, cellular phone, people on Wall Street said, "Well, these people don't know how to operate the phone business." Because, it was entertainment analysts that followed it. And they didn't know anything about the phone business. And, I split the stock from five sixty-five to -- it got to be, say, fifty-six dollars a share. It went from fifty-six down to twenty. Now, over a weekend, I didn't know how to do it.

James H. Billington:

What weekend, roughly when?

John W. Kluge:

This was around 1980, I think. In the end, I talked to my financial man in the company and I said, "Over the weekend, talk to the counsel, the legal counsel of the company. And, tell them we have an important announcement to make on Monday, and to talk to the New York Stock Exchange to tell them we're stopping trading. We have an important announcement." In the meantime, I called in the board over the weekend and explained to them what I was doing, taking the company private. Well, I went to the old Manufacturers Hanover, and I talked with John McGillicuddy, and I said, "John, will you support me in this, the borrowing of billion, one hundred million or more" -- whatever that figure exactly is, and he said he would. Well, I have to tell you, by the time their lawyers got into it, I said, "Put in all the outs you want," which they did. And, in the meantime, I kept saying, or I never talked to the general counsel myself, purposely. So, they could never pin that on anything I said. So, the financial man said, "Look, the board is still in session." Now, Tuesday morning came and I finally got the letter from the Manufacturers Hanover. I came early in the morning, 7:30. And, which is very unusual. Banks usually come in later. But, for this, I got action early in the morning. I came out of the bank, and I was so upset because a driver that I had, for twenty-five years, had just thrown out of the car, a cigar, a Cuban cigar that I had started. And, I was more upset about that cigar than about taking the company private. Well, we did take it private. And, then, I think it was 1986, the mirrored subs were out. Which means if you sold a subsidiary, and it came into the company, you'd have to pay a tax. Then, if you sold the company, you'd pay another tax. So, that's why we dissolved the company. We saved ourselves a billion dollars in taxes, and all because the analysts didn't understand what we were doing. I always operated on the basis, not what the stock is, but what the concept of the company might be. In other words, did it have a business plan that, in the final analysis, made sense? And, that was always my driving force, not what the stock is. In that sense, I operated it like a private company.

James H. Billington:

But, what was your concept? As you describe it, Metromedia was something almost approaching a conglomerate --

John W. Kluge:

Yes, it was --

James H. Billington:

-- involved in. So, what was the guiding, what was your guiding concept?

John W. Kluge:

Well, the guiding [concept] was, I would buy related media. Because, I felt that -- Except we didn't go into newspapers. I did go into the magazine business once. Lost a million dollars. I tried to make the Washington --, I forgot, it was the [one that] covered embassies and -- MS. : [Inaudible.]

John W. Kluge:

What? MS. : Regardies?

John W. Kluge:

No, this is -- I can't remember. And, I tried to make a very serious publication about it, and wrote about China and various things. Well, anyhow, we lost a million dollars. We also lost the readership, because we lost the people who wanted to know who's giving a dinner party where and all that sort of thing. So --

James H. Billington:

But, how did, say, something like the outdoor --?

John W. Kluge:

Well, the outdoor business is a media business.

James H. Billington:

Explain, is this --

John W. Kluge:

Yes, yes. And, radio is a media business. Transit is a media business. These were all related. But, then we never established, for example, in television. We never established a network, because that took much more capital. So, you have to remember. There was also a relationship, financial relationship. And, outdoor you could write off it could be either personal property or realty property. And, we took fast write-offs, five years. And, in radio and television, you couldn't, there was hardly any amortization/depreciation. So, the company always increased its cash flow, regardless of where the stock was. And, that's what I believe, even to this day, which is the cash flow is the determining factor -- not the net earnings. The net earnings is where the government participates in your cash flow. And, so there was a financial relationship between broadcasting and outdoor. And, yet it was media.

James H. Billington:

Now, what is included in outdoor besides billboards and --

John W. Kluge:

Well, you know --

James H. Billington:

Radio equipment, sort of radio outdoors?

John W. Kluge:

No, no, radio is an outdoor medium.

James H. Billington:

Right.

John W. Kluge:

But, it's not an outdoor. Now, our research also showed that the young people were starting to -- are the people that go outdoors, so they see the billboards, they hear the radio. So, we would, a lot of times, go to advertisers and say, "Look, your message is good in the home with television, and some radio. But, the young people want to get out of the house." And also, what we showed was that the high quintile in the house was a low quintile on the outside. Older people don't move out of the house that much. And, the advertiser has never been interested in the older people. The toothpaste they use, they use as a continued habit. The young people try different things. They're much more experimental than the older people are. Now, the older people have more money, but they also hang on to it perhaps more. So, we had to come up with all kinds of marketing.

James H. Billington:

So, you were basically marketing in to this younger crowd you were going outdoors for. Before that, it was generally appreciated.

John W. Kluge:

Right. And, in television, we never formed a network. What we did is we would go to advertisers and say, "Look, we covered Chicago, Houston, Dallas, LA, Washington, New York. And, in these areas, you reach, let's say, forty percent of the US public," or whatever that percentage was. "But, you reach them at a lower cost. And, what you should do, and what we recommend, is that you buy network and you supplement it with a marketing approach in these heavy centers, like New York or Chicago, LA." And, that was our marketing.

James H. Billington:

But, on the one hand, you were, in other words, including a variety of media to target, but you also included products that you sold through the media, or was marketed through the media.

John W. Kluge:

Yes, we --

James H. Billington:

And, what were some of those? How was outdoor, for instance --

John W. Kluge:

Well, what we would do --

James H. Billington:

Or, did you do that separately for Metromedia?

John W. Kluge:

Well, products, when I was in the food business, still am in the food business, I kept them apart.

James H. Billington:

So, it wasn't that you weren't --

John W. Kluge:

No --

James H. Billington:

-- marketing in the products that you were --

John W. Kluge:

No, and you, you wouldn't do that unless the company owned those products. But, the company didn't own, I owned them separately. But, I used to say to media people, "You don't want to advertise unless you absolutely have to." I was never of the approach where I said, because I'm in products and services and advertising costs you money, and, therefore, you want to be very careful how you advertise, where you advertise. And, you see, today, for example, it is very difficult to have the reach and frequency that you had years ago because of cost. Radio is cheaper than television. But, radio's also become quite expensive. But, today, we are in radio in Eastern Europe. We're in Vladivostok, we're in Budapest, we're in Latvia.

James H. Billington:

Could you itemize where were the crucial moments when you began taking, whether it's Metromedia itself or another investment or operation, when you began to go international? Was it right from the beginning, or were there some other milestones --

John W. Kluge:

No.

James H. Billington:

-- when you moved from the --

John W. Kluge:

Yeah, we were very much a domestic company until we went into graphics -- Until we went into digitized graphics.

James H. Billington:

And, when was that, that was some time ago? Way ahead of the digital revolution, if I recall correctly.

John W. Kluge:

Back in the late sixties, early seventies.

James H. Billington:

And, that was really, took you more into the international market right away. How so?

John W. Kluge:

Well, because, we went into Europe, of course. We put a plant in Holland, we put it about thirty-five miles from Dusseldorf. We put a plant in Kuala Lumpur.

James H. Billington:

Was this Metromedia or --

John W. Kluge:

Metromedia, yeah. Well, but it was Metromedia, but it was a private company. It was separate from Metromedia, Inc., which I dissolved. So many of --

James H. Billington:

When did that happen, when did you dissolve it?

John W. Kluge:

That, we went private -- We dissolved it in eighty-six. Which now is fifteen years.

James H. Billington:

So, that was a milestone --

John W. Kluge:

That was --

James H. Billington:

-- you went much more international?

John W. Kluge:

Right. And, well, there were different milestones. There was a milestone when I went into public company and became chief executive, which was back in fifty-nine. When I took Metromedia private was a milestone. Then, when I went more international was a milestone. Then, I went into other businesses, like long distance, which became MCI Worldcom. And, we had another business, international, -- Metromedia Fiber. Which is in Europe and, for example, right now, we're building a ring around Germany, which we are, at the moment, we are lessening our capital investment. It got so, a couple of years ago, we were investing two hundred and fifty million a month. And, that's gotten down to a walk. But, it is international.

James H. Billington:

But, you say that your increasing international involvement was basically motivated by your sense of the inherent logic of new technologies or was it your inherent sense of the way the marketplace was changing and expanding?

John W. Kluge:

Yes, I, it was very obvious in the seventies that it was going to become more of a global market. And, that the world outside the United States was a bigger market than the United States. And, a lot of manufacturers in the United States were very happy just doing business in the United States. That changed after various world war conflicts or Vietnam, Korea, to where those conflicts even brought us closer to the Asian market. Today, major companies, like GE, Proctor and Gamble, you name it, are internationally oriented. And there used to be companies that just would operate around New York. But, today, I think every large company has a commitment in the international market.

James H. Billington:

Would you, could you take, say, one or two or three business leaders whom you particularly admire for their importance, their more general importance for the whole development of the global economy that you think are sort of examples of both intrinsic importance and something that you find broadly constructive and admirable? In other words, as a major investor and operator yourself, who, apart from who you have perhaps dealt with yourself, but also including those, who do you find as models, if someone were writing the history books in the future in the development --

John W. Kluge:

Well, I think Jack Welsh has been a model example of a CEO who, I remember, when Jack said to me, and I knew Jack before he ever became CEO.

John W. Kluge:

When did you first [know] him, roughly?

John W. Kluge:

Oh, I must have known him, I guess, back in the sixties. And, I remember talking with him at the Bohemian Grove when he's just become CEO. And, he said the things he was going to do -- And, he did them. He's the kind of executive that's not easy to work for, because he's hard on employees. He's fair, but he's tough. But, he's also very tough on himself. He is very competitive, very driven. And, he's certainly one example. I think there are people in the computer business that, certainly, Microsoft has been an example. Regardless of the government case, the company has been very, very competitive worldwide. And, this country has been the leader in the computer area, with Intel and other companies in the Silicon Valley. But, there are lots of CEO's that are not -- are more interested in performing than the perks in their job. I know there are other CEO's, who not only are interested in perks, but they use them fairly well -- Who, kind of like some politicians, just want to keep their job. I've always respected the people who want to perform.

James H. Billington:

What do you find, you mentioned Jack Welsh, what would you say are his, apart from the broad general success of General Electric under his leadership, what, the aspects of that that are broader and -- [tape changes sides] --

John W. Kluge:

Well, Jack, when he first came into General Electric, he had a lot of egos to contend with. He was sort of picked out, you know. He wasn't the typical corporate type. And, he demanded performance. And, didn't make any difference whether it was in Europe or the United States or anywhere. And, you couldn't fool him very well, because, he'd sort of come up from down below. He knew the classical excuses. He knew what, you know, if a guy was faking it. And, he demanded loyalty as any chief executive officer does. He demands loyalty. But, that doesn't mean that, if the job they do isn't up to standard, that loyalty plays a second fiddle. But, he goes to the person, and Jack is the kind of person that, he confronts the person. He doesn't go behind people's back. He's a very unusual fellow. And, he doesn't know everything -- And, he knows that. So, he surrounds himself with people that are competent. And, people may know more than he does. This is certainly true in research or in some of the areas that GE is in, like motors, like, well, finance, for example. GE Credit has become a huge operation. When Jack first came there, it was a small operation. Now, I forget what it earns, but it's big money. But, he puts people in there that know more than he does.

James H. Billington:

Is there another example you'd cite from the business world, say, from the media world?

John W. Kluge:

Well I have a lot of respect for Rupert Murdoch.

James H. Billington:

And, what are the characteristics that you --

John W. Kluge:

Well, I think one of the characteristics of Rupert is that he's decisive. There's nothing devious about him. I remember meeting Rupert for the first time when he came from Australia. And, you have to remember, I sold Metromedia Television to Rupert, which is now the basis of the Fox network. I remember meeting him the first time. He had four million dollars. And, he said, "Is it safe to put in the bank in New York?" This, I know just exactly when that was. It must have been the sixties or something, the seventies. But --

James H. Billington:

Why did he think it wasn't safe to put it in the bank in New York?

John W. Kluge:

Well, because, you know, well, you know, New York had financial problems and all these sort of things. And, he's an Australian. I had to wait until Rupert became a US citizen to turn those television stations over to Rupert. And, he became a citizen in 1986.

James H. Billington:

So, apart from his decisiveness, what were the --

John W. Kluge:

He's also very direct. For example, when I decided to sell our film business, Orion, I called up Rupert. I said, "You know, Rupert, I'm calling you. If you have any interest fine, if you don't fine." He said, "John, I'm not interested." That's all I want to hear. He's direct. He doesn't say, "Well, I'll let our people look at it" -- in other words, afraid to say, "Look, we're not interested." He's not afraid to do that. If he's interested, he'll do something. He'll tell you. But, there are many executives who fiddle continually, they don't want to say, "No." They want to keep you forever happy, you know. They'd like to put you in a cocoon. Neither of these men that you mentioned, Jack Welsh or Rupert, are devious. And, I can tell you, I've been fooled by many of them. And, that's where I got my experience. So, I appreciate people who are direct, you know.

James H. Billington:

Some people would say of, say, Rupert Murdoch, that, while, admitting these positive qualities that you say, that the end product might -- this is a common criticism of the media, that's very popular is --you know, tends towards the sensationalistic, the tabloid and, you know the Post has been criticized and so forth. But, what would be your reaction to that --

John W. Kluge:

Well --

James H. Billington:

-- sense of broader social purposes for the media?

John W. Kluge:

Well, Rupert and I may differ in this area, for example. He'll do things that're going to sell newspaper. And, I guess that's why I'm not in the newspaper business. If you think the Post is outrageous, you should read the Sun in London. And, yet, he bought the London Times. Now, the London Times has changed somewhat. But, and I guess it had to have changed somewhat. The thing about Rupert is he's one of the most hard working executives I've ever --

James H. Billington:

One of the most?

John W. Kluge:

Hard working executives. For example, I remember somebody was telling me he was out on the street around five in the morning, and there was Rupert on his way to the Post. This was years ago. Because, the Post, I don't know what it is now, but it always was losing money, as you know. But, Rupert is probably more interested in power than he is in money. But, he isn't the only one. I think Armand Hammer was more interested in power than money. And, I used to like Armand. He and I used to travel the world together.

James H. Billington:

What did you like about him? I know you were fond of him. What did you find attractive about Armand Hammer and your long association with him, as well?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I know that Epstein wrote this book on him and, of course, he never talked to me, because, he didn't want to hear anything positive about Armand. Armand had his faults, but we all have our faults. But, let's say he was not particularly interested in money. He lived quite modestly in the house that he had in California. The only thing he had was a swimming pool at the bottom of it. He didn't have important art in his house. As a matter of fact, his wife made copies of some of his art, and that's what he had in the house. And, he, I always liked him because, you know, he just was a driving force. I remember opening up a coal mine with him, two hundred miles west of Beijing. And, the only time he could see the Russian ambassador to China was around six or six thirty in the morning. And, Armand would call me from all over the world, his time. He didn't even figure what our time was. So, it might be four o'clock in the morning and, you know, Bing Crosby one time said in a luncheon, small luncheon, he said, "You know, his kids used to complain because they'd get a call at three in the morning, four in the morning." And, Armand was, and especially the later part of his life, [he] was interested in eradicating cancer. And, the other was that Russia and the United States eventually become friends. Now, you know, the Reagan administration wasn't very fond of Armand. He was, in my estimation, he was never a Communist. His father was a Communist. And, his father, as you know, was a doctor and was put in jail and all that sort of thing. Armand, I went to Columbia, he went to Columbia medical school. And, when he got this honor at Columbia, I talked to several of his classmates. They were there. He said, believe it or not, Armand came to the graduation in a Rolls Royce. His father's pharmacy store, he concocted something like hanacol, which was made of eighteen percent alcohol. And, you know, this was a great southern comfort drink.

James H. Billington:

It would be during prohibition --

John W. Kluge:

Yeah, right.

James H. Billington:

-- had a medicinal purpose.

John W. Kluge:

Oh, yeah. It made people feel very comfortable, especially old ladies.

James H. Billington:

Well, one of the things that's been [or] seems to be very characteristic of the many operations in which you've been involved in the business world is your constant interest in being on the cutting edge of innovation. Could you describe for me what you think are the one or two - a couple of the most interesting innovations? The ones that gave you the greatest satisfaction, quite apart from profit and monetary interest, the greatest satisfaction in being, so to speak, a little ahead of the curve or anticipating.

John W. Kluge:

Well, I, some of the things made money, some didn't. But, I was interested always in the development of beef. With beef --

James H. Billington:

Beef?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah, which would be tasty -- remember, fat gives tastes. But, some cattle naturally put on a lot of fat, just like people. And, some cattle put on some fat. So, we were selective in picking out cattle. And, we do that to this day, I'm in that business.

James H. Billington:

So, you were interested before everybody was concerned about cholesterol?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah, this was back a number of years ago. And, we still are involved.

James H. Billington:

How did you get involved? What companies are --

John W. Kluge:

Well, I got involved because of my farm. And, well, I don't have cattle here. We have cattle in Minnesota, we have farms, and we have, in Richmond, we have a meat cutting, the portion[?] plant. In Spencer, Iowa, we have a beef --

James H. Billington:

This isn't through Metromedia?

John W. Kluge:

No, no, this is separate. You were asking about being on the cutting edge. Well, I never go into anything that I'm not fully committed to improving whatever that is. I don't care what it is. We're in the peanut business, the almond business, the pecan business. And, at the same time, I gave money for research, you know, because some children are very allergic to peanuts. So, in other words, rather than just sitting by and saying nothing will happen, I'm doing something in that area. I started it in Johns Hopkins a few years back. Of course, I was a pioneer in cellular phones, which, today, have become a big business. Pioneer in graphics, digitized graphics.

James H. Billington:

And, you mentioned that digital graphics was an important area in getting you involved internationally. How did that connection --

John W. Kluge:

Well, because, the graphics internationally were very poor. And, an advertiser, like the Ford Motor Company, General Motors, other companies, wanted quality of the image, because, it reflected on their product. And, they wanted uniformity. I was early on a competitor to AT and T in the long distance phone business, which, with mergers and everything else, became MCI Worldcom, which is the second largest --

James H. Billington:

What, how did that begin, the long distance business?

John W. Kluge:

Well, we had a small company.

James H. Billington:

This is Metromedia now?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah, we bought in Texas and we grabbed that up. We merged it with other companies.

James H. Billington:

This was before the breakup of AT and T or was this --

John W. Kluge:

No, this was after. And, remember, AT and T was still the largest long distance -- well, little by little, then I merged into Worldcom. This is before they merged with MCI. And, Worldcom, I was the largest stock holder of Worldcom, I was chairman of the board. But --

James H. Billington:

This was when, roughly?

John W. Kluge:

I don't, I can't give you the years. But, frankly, I didn't want to fly to Jackson, Mississippi. And, I remember the first annual meeting -- I was chairman of the board -- and Bernie Ebbers, who is the chief executive, and still is -- is standing up there. And, of course, the various farmers around, who were early investors in Worldcom. Bernie, what do you got hot on the griddle? Bernie, what are you going to earn next year? You know, all these questions. And, besides that, Bernie served lunch that was, you know, certainly wasn't up to worthwhile flying into Jackson having that lunch and going to these meetings. So, we had three seats on the board. And, I finally sold my stock in Worldcom. And, Bernie's been a great executive. He has background, he was a, I think it was a basketball coach. He came, I think, from Canada. He had done pretty well. So, and I give him a lot of credit. I don't know how many acquisitions he's made, but he's made a lot of them. So, that was, in other words, I'm always interested in -- I have another company that's interested in the New Light -- New Light. It's a light that goes through a logarithm. It's not a laser. And, that is, that's a new technology.

James H. Billington:

Now, which of these companies have you actually, you were CEO for a while with Worldcom, before it merged with MCI.

John W. Kluge:

No, I was the chairman of the board.

James H. Billington:

Chairman of the board. And, how many of these have you been, had that position or a comparable position?

John W. Kluge:

Oh, I don't know number of companies. But, little by little, I've, I'm still on the board of directors, but I've withdrawn from a lot of these. For example, I used to be on the Occidental Board. I used to be on the board at Bear Stearns. There are very few of these, today, I'm still a trustee and a board member of Shubert, which, of course, is very big, and biggest in the United States in theater. But, and I was an investor. And, for example, I owned twenty-two percent of Cats.

James H. Billington:

Of?

John W. Kluge:

Cats. I was in there with David Geffen and Shubert and ABC. So, and that played on Broadway eighteen years.

James H. Billington:

Yes, oh, yes. It's just recently closed. If we could just go back to beef for a minute, what was the -- what did you do that got you interested in beef and how did you get into the restaurant business --

John W. Kluge:

Well, I don't know. But, my associate thought it was cheap getting into this restaurant business, so --

James H. Billington:

Well, let's just stick to beef.

John W. Kluge:

To beef. Well, you know, cholesterol is a very hot topic in the United States. And, the funny thing is households eat less beef, but they eat beef --like to eat beef, in the restaurants. Most women don't even know how to prepare beef. Now, what I was interested in, and still interested in, is to have the minimum amount of fat, just to the edge of where it still has some taste. You know, it's like Pavlov's dogs. It's around[?] and, you know, finally drives the dog crazy. Well, if you don't have any fat on the beef, it's tasteless. So, and we are one of the big factors of glot. Do you know what glot is? Glot is what the Jewish community has in beef through the rabbi. And, then, of course, you have rabbinical heads, Detroit, Chicago, Washington, Baltimore, New York. And, the point is we have the plant which we're now expanding because we have so much demand for glot.

James H. Billington:

Let me shift for a minute to, you told us very interesting things about your impressions of some of your colleagues in the higher ranks in the business world. And, others, but you also have wide interest in entertainment, the arts, education, and so forth. Could you give us, particularly with regard to performers that you've known, and you've known quite a lot of them, one or two who are interesting above and beyond their actual qualities as a performer. Although, that's, of course, central. But, what should the public know about some of the major figures in the entertainment industry that are not generally known?

John W. Kluge:

Well --

James H. Billington:

-- get written about a lot, but there is always the impression that people are repeating the same stories. You've seen so many of them.

John W. Kluge:

Well, one that comes to mind is Frank Sinatra. I think that the general public seemed to always know how Frank would get into fights or that kind of thing. What they might not know is he's probably one of the most generous people I ever knew, and I knew him for many, many years. The, and he wanted to do this anonymously. He didn't want people to know. Down and out entertainers who lost their appeal. He's a prime example of one of the most misunderstood people. He had his faults. He had a very hot temper. But, he was a pussycat in many ways. The, I think, he, I think he was the greatest entertainer as a singer. Michael Jackson was down here, as you know. I think he's a fabulous entertainer. I only saw him once in his act, live. The following week, I had the Dalai Lama down here -- two different personalities. And, Michael Jackson looked around, saw these [Aristide] Maillols and he said, "What catalogue did you buy these out of?" What catalogue did you buy these out of?

James H. Billington:

These gorgeous statues that you have around here on your grounds --

John W. Kluge:

Well, if you go to the Louvre, the eighteen Maillols, I have those same eighteen. They're not all here. They used to be all here. But --

James H. Billington:

So, that's what Michael Jackson said. [change to tape 2]. It's a parade of extraordinary people.

John W. Kluge:

I said to Michael, "You know, you're absolutely one of the greatest entertainers I have ever, ever met." And, he, my son, who now is in his first year at Columbia, he and a little boy were here when Michael Jackson was over -- and I said to them, "Look, I have some older people here. And, I'd like you to meet them." Oh, they didn't want to. They wanted to go out and play. I said, "Do me favor. Come on." So, they did, they stayed. And, I introduced them to different people, and I introduced them to Michael Jackson. Their eyes got big, you know. And, Junior's friend, Michael put his hand on his head. He said he's never going to wash his hair after that. But, you know, I introduced him to other people. Didn't mean a thing. But, Michael Jackson just sent him into the clouds. The Dalai Lama, very interesting. He stayed in the guest house, where you're staying. And, I asked him who his teacher was. You know what he said? "The Chinese." You know, it was very interesting. The Chinese were his greatest teachers. And, --

James H. Billington:

What did they teach him? I mean -- what was the --

John W. Kluge:

Well, the point is, they taught him a lot of things. They taught him, be patient. They taught him to try to understand their position. But, in other words, they taught him a lot of things --

James H. Billington:

Even though they were giving him a very bad time.

John W. Kluge:

Even though they were his enemies.

James H. Billington:

He learned a lot from them.

John W. Kluge:

No question. That's right.

James H. Billington:

Who did Michael Jackson say he learned from? Did he --

John W. Kluge:

I didn't ask him. Well, you know he was the talent in the Jackson family.

James H. Billington:

Yes. Sure.

John W. Kluge:

Sammy Davis, Junior, I remember seeing him and his father and his uncle in a performance in Chicago. And, you could just see he was the star. Do you remember David Susskind?

James H. Billington:

Oh, certainly, yes.

John W. Kluge:

Well, you know, I had him down. He was on Channel 5 in New York. And, I had him down to a luncheon, and I had invited all of the FCC commissioners. And, here's David. Of course, he's dead now. And, I have a circle, and, in this circle were the FCC commissioners and the head of the FCC. And David said, "Those FCC commissioners are the dumbest people in the world." And, he's looking at the chairman of the FCC. "And, the dumbest is the chairman." But, he didn't know any of these people. He didn't know who he was talking to. I want to tell you, I just fainted, you know.

James H. Billington:

Returning to Sinatra, whom you originally mentioned. I mean, could you give us some illustration of the real Sinatra that wasn't, hasn't been well known? Just a concrete example of some kind.

John W. Kluge:

Well, Frank loved his mother. And, he drove me around Palm Springs. And, he said, "Look up at this mountain. That's where the plane crashed with my mother. She was on her way to Vegas to see my performance." Frank was very sensitive. And, you could anger him very quickly.

James H. Billington:

Very?

John W. Kluge:

You could anger him very quickly. I never got in any argument with Frank. But, he would, he would, couldn't do enough for you. Send you gifts, do this, do that. I stayed at Palm Beach. I mean, at Palm Springs. He had a house there, which he sold. I, then he had a house in Beverly Hills. And, he also had a house in Malibu, which Barbara still has. And, she's selling the house in Beverly Hills. Before Frank died, I was out in Malibu having dinner with a couple of other friends, and you probably would know. Louis Jourdan, who was in Gigi, remember? He was there.

James H. Billington:

Who, oh, Jourdan? Oh, yeah.

John W. Kluge:

And, his wife, well. I know that Frank, I went to bed, or rather, he went to bed before I did. And, that's the first time that I realized that he went to bed earlier -- He was not happy -- must have had pain or whatever. And, I was with Frank in Egypt. And, he performed before the pyramids. And, a lighting company from London came over, to light up the pyramids. They were dramatic. And, Frank performed, and the people in Cairo furnished us carpets that we could sit while Frank was performing. And, somehow or other, he turned in his performance and looked at the pyramids and he came real low to the microphone, he lost his words. And, the audience supplied it. I said to Frank afterwards, at his suite at one hotel, I said, "What happened?" He said, "When I looked back and saw the pyramid," he said, "I just blanked out. They were so overpowering," which they are. And, they were lighted like they'd never been lighted before. And, he was, when he performed, by the way, in the record studio, the recording studio, rather, and he only wanted to go through it once. And, he gave it all, and that's it. He didn't want to redo it, redo it. I bought his house on Beaumont in Beverly Hills. And, I'm having dinner with the realtor. And, he said, "Do you want to go up and see the house?" I said, "If it's good enough for Frank, it's good enough for me." I bought the house. Well, I said, "I can't see the house. I've got to go to San Francisco." And, he called me up, the realtor, and he said, "You bought yourself a house." So, that's how I bought [it], but then he wanted to buy it back, when he was married to Mia Farrow, and I didn't want to sell it back. And, then I finally did. I sold back the house, which he built. It had a great movie theater and all that sort of thing, separate from the house. I'm trying to think. He was one year younger than I. And, I flew out, Jessie and I, my wife flew out to the funeral. And, every seat in the church was taken. And, all the old stars were there. Sophia Loren and you name it. And, if there's such thing as a beautiful funeral, that was it.

James H. Billington:

Speaking of funerals and religious services, you also, I know you made it possible to bring the great Vatican exhibition to the Library of Congress, and you were close to people like Cardinal McCarrick, who's our new cardinal in Washington. Could you characterize him or describe your relationship with --

John W. Kluge:

Well, I've known Cardinal McCarrick, I can't remember exactly how many years, but it certainly must be twenty-five years. And, last November, I said, you know, "Father Ted, I can't understand why you aren't a cardinal." And, he said, "Well, I'm seventy years of age. I'm getting too old." Well, he said, "But I want to tell you. I am going to become a cardinal in one of two places." And, I said, "It's about time," because he will make a great, great cardinal for Washington. Firstly, he's very facile with languages. And, I was sitting next to the French ambassador's wife, who just met McCarrick a few days before. And, she said, "He speaks as well as I do." He speaks Polish and Spanish. He was the bishop of Harlem. He was the archbishop of Newark. And, he's just an outstanding individual.

James H. Billington:

What have you gotten out of talking with him? I mean, what is your basis, do you discuss business with a cardinal?

John W. Kluge:

No, no. We discuss personal things. He lost, as you know, a nephew in the World Trade Center, who was a fireman for the city of New York. He had two favorite nephews, and one of them perished in this fire. And, I haven't talked to him since. I'm going to,in fact, invite him this fall or this winter either to Florida or Reno. He, he should have been a cardinal long time ago. I think he's just too bright for the average institution. But, I get cards from him constantly from Bosnia, Russia, China. He travels for the Pope quite a bit. And, the Pope was in Newark, as you remember.

James H. Billington:

Are there any other figures, besides Cardinal McCarrick, who you've had contact with or you view as kind of what you might call sort of moral resources for the nation and for the civilization?

John W. Kluge:

Well, some of those people are dead long time ago, like the dean of the Detroit Law School.

James H. Billington:

His name was --

John W. Kluge:

Campbell. He was a lawyer --he was a teacher. But, he was very moral person. And, it taught me very early that any success should be measured by how you got there. I'm not trying to preach here. But, this Campbell gave me some very solid thoughts. Allen B. Crowe, who was --

James H. Billington:

Could you mention any particular lesson or an particular point that he made that's --

John W. Kluge:

Well, I think, for example, I mentioned this before, there was a realtor and Campbell, they were guests at this teacher's house. And, I was there. And, the realtor said this was during the Depression. "Oh," he said, "you can get out of that thing very easily, you know." He was mentioning something in the real estate law. And, Campbell said, "Oh, I know that." But, I said, "I think it's morally wrong." In other words, you can be legally correct, but morally wrong. And, today, we seem to put more emphasis on being legally correct. I sound like an old moralist. I don't want to be, but that's certainly been my observation. Allen B. Crowe -- his picture's in one of these books -- he was the first president at Georgia Economic Club. And, you know, that institution is still very strong today. And, it served Detroit very well, and the nation. He would never take a drink. But, I noticed one thing. When he was ninety, he started enjoying a drink. Yeah, Prentice in New York, Prentice, Ted Prentice, was a trustee of Columbia. And, you know, that was my second year at Columbia. When I could have gone to China for the Chrysler Motor Car Company. And, at that time, ten thousand dollars a year was a lot of money. And, I was tempted, and I asked Prentice about, he said, "Look," he said, "you finish your education. If they want you at the end of your graduation," he said, "you can always go with them." Well, that was very good advice. And, he was the pioneer of underpinning, which made skyscrapers possible. His firm in New York was known as Spencer, White and Prentice. And, White was the father of the famous photographer. Remember, Margaret White?

James H. Billington:

Oh, sure. Just to finish up on the entertainment business, I've noticed pictures of some of the famous starlets. You mentioned, among them, Gina Lolabrigida, Elizabeth Taylor, Sophia Loren. Can you tell us anything about any of them that isn't widely known? They're certainly very celebrated ladies of the screen.

John W. Kluge:

Gina Lolabrigida, one day, wanted to take over the apartment in Waldorf Astoria, which I had for twenty-five years. It was a big apartment. She took all the family pictures and put her own pictures around the apartment. Instead of staying for long weekends, she stayed a month.

James H. Billington:

She was subletting from you, in effect?

John W. Kluge:

No, no, no. She was just, you know, a friend, and I gave her the apartment. And, then she had a press conference and, of course, it looked like it was her apartment, you know. She really is -- she went down to see Castro. And, Castro, she was very friendly with Piaget, Piaget watch. And, she had a diamond Piaget watch on. And, Fidel Castro kept looking at the watch. And, she said, "I'll tell you what, I'll trade my watch," and he had a rough steel watch, you know, for this one. And, of course, Castro said, "Be delighted," he said, "on one condition. I want you to inscribe in the back of your watch, Dear Gina, With Love, Fidel." And, of course, she did. And, she, without mentioning any name, but she was vying with Onassis to entertain the astronauts. And, she entertained them in her house in the old Appian Way in Rome. And, Onassis didn't have a chance because she went to the State Department. She knew some Undersecretary of State and all of this. She entertained. And, one of the astronauts said to her, "Gina, I'm coming back after the affair." Well, the party ended, and she waited and waited and waited. He telephoned her, and he said, "Gina, I lost my way." She said, "You lost your way to my home?" She said, "and you found your way to the Moon?" I think, for example, since you're interested in opera, you, I know you know Madame [Ernestine] Schumann-Heink. You remember her?

James H. Billington:

Yes, for sure. __________.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah, I saw her perform in New York. And, later in life, she performed Vaudeville. You know, in other words, she sang in Vaudeville. And, then her voice was cracking all over the place. So, I'm on a train going to the West Coast in the lounge car. And, I was sitting next to this man, I was saying, we got in a conversation, I said, "You know, that's just too bad that Madame Shuman Hike just didn't retire." And, her voice was cracking all over the place. He said, "I know. She's my mother." You know, after that, when I talked to the person next to me, I don't make these statements.

James H. Billington:

Any thoughts about about Elizabeth Taylor or --

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. Elizabeth Taylor, I think she's a very bright lady. I saw her when she was around twenty. You know, she did National Velvet. I tell you, she was one of the most beautiful gals in the world, really. But, she's always had a lot of health problems. And, I flew her to, on our plane, to Los Angeles. And, she was flat on the plane. Just, she's always had a back problem. She's always had a weight problem. But, I tell you, she has a very sharp mind. She's not a -- you know, some people say, -- well, "dumb actress." She's not that at all. And, I remember, when we did in Budapest a television show when she was married to the -- Burton, Richard Burton. And, they both were inebriated. That's one of the funniest shows I ever saw. I don't know what happened to it.

James H. Billington:

[Inaudible.]

John W. Kluge:

Yeah, this was in Budapest. But, she, you know, she likes jewelry. She had a good eye for jewelry.

James H. Billington:

One more question, that aspect of your activities was your role in helping in the early days to establish public television, as well. Could you tell us a little bit about that? How you got into it, and what your --

John W. Kluge:

Well, I always felt that the country ought to have an educational channel. So, I was involved in the educational channel in Washington, Channel 26. I was involved in 28 Channel in Los Angeles. Channel 13 in New York.

James H. Billington:

You mean involved, you --

John W. Kluge:

Well, putting up money and being the spearhead. You know, we didn't have a lot of money. But, whenever I felt something was really important, I did it, regardless of the money. And, Metromedia Company, we didn't have the money. But, we established a pension plan, a bonus plan, we did various things. And, we created in that company a spirit that even today people will write to me, you know, I got that they felt they were part of something. And, if you want to excite people you have to make them a part of something, as a contributor in every way. The worst kind of company is where you have a few executives and the rest of them are spectators.

James H. Billington:

So, how did this spillover into the public --

John W. Kluge:

Well, the point is that I felt there was a need there. And, Channel 13 in New York would not have happened if I weren't really effective in getting the head of Ford Foundation. And, then, the networks at that time weren't that enthusiastic about an educational television channel. But, they finally came around, both in New York and Los Angeles. And, what is the Father at Georgetown?

James H. Billington:

Father Healy.

John W. Kluge:

Healy. He and I were very much involved in establishing Channel 26, along with Max Kampelman, who is still alive. So, I don't know, in other words an educational television station can do things that a commercial television station cannot do.

James H. Billington:

What did you think it was important that they do that --

John W. Kluge:

Well, I felt that, in other words, they didn't have to worry about -- [change tape side]. They didn't have to worry about sponsors. They didn't have to worry about how long a program might take. In other words, their job was to educate and perhaps entertain as well. But, they could do a lot of things. As a matter of fact, in New York, I went to Columbia and I, the early part, must have been in the sixties. And, I had a program on Channel 5 in New York who were professors at Columbia in different fields. What was the Polish professor? He was very --

James H. Billington:

Brezenski?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah, Brezenski. He was very, very anti-Russian, as you know. He was a professional at it. And, I think he still is, isn't he?

James H. Billington:

A little more favorable now, but not too much --

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. Well, it was the University on the air.

James H. Billington:

So, that was kind of an experimental focus that later developed into educational television?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

Well, you certainly have been a champion of, more recently, with your support of the National Digital Library at the Library of Congress and our whole American Memory, and then later our new America's Library in the educational use of the Internet, too. So, you seem to have this constant interest in education and the use of new media for education. Let me ask you one other question about, you've been invested in the states of the former Soviet Union in the media. And, you've stuck with it, even after the sort of financial meltdown of ninety-eight. What's your feeling about that? How did you happen to get in there and continue to be involved?

John W. Kluge:

We've been in there, I think, nine years now. And, here's a country of a hundred and forty-eight million people, and the youth is well educated. I have a lot of respect for the Russian people. And, I think they will eventually pull out. Maybe I will not see it in my lifetime. But, eventually, that country will come together and I think Putin is doing an excellent job. And, you know, you don't see it all. But, he's got a lot of different elements to combat -- The Kremlin, the oligarchs, the Dumas, the governors, the governors of the eighty-nine Oblasts, and just general corruption. But, you know, when we developed the west, we had an awful lot of corruption and killings. And, in Russia, a favorite thing about competition is to kill your competitor. That's why, when I go there, I'm always very careful.

James H. Billington:

Looking ahead, if you were to anticipate the middle of the next century, or even twenty, twenty-five years down the trail, what parts of the world do you think are going to make more progress than is now assumed, and what parts are likely to make less progress? Where do you see the future of the kind of inventive entrepreneurship of which you've been such an exemplar catching hold and really carrying people forward?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I think China's going to make tremendous progress. And, I think Russia will. You know, people have, when they get down and the New York Times has been down on Russia, any time you want to see something negative, it's there. But, I think there's always that excessiveness. There are lots of things right that are being done right in Russia. I think they're much more effective in their tax collection, all that.

James H. Billington:

Oh, they have a flat tax now. Fifteen percent flat tax, which has been much talked about in this country --

John W. Kluge:

I know. Well, but, I think those two countries are certainly -- you know China's a different problem in the sense that, when you have a billion, two hundred fifty million people to feed, and you can't have all these people going to Shanghai and all these cities, overwhelm these cities. And, it's an agriculture society that's slowly, slowly becoming a different society. But, you can't do it all at once. And, I do think, and I talked with the president of China, I think human rights very important. But, you can't dictate to China. They just won't listen to you. And, the Chinese mentality is so different from ours. I remember when I was secretary to the son of the president of China in 1935. And, I was rushing to get a subway --

James H. Billington:

You were what, you were talking to who?

John W. Kluge:

I was secretary to the son of the president of China. 1935, while I was in college.

James H. Billington:

While you were in college. How did you get that __________?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I got to be friendly with him. And, you know, I started doing stenographic work.

James H. Billington:

Secretary -- the son of Chiang Kai- Shek?

John W. Kluge:

No. China's had three presidents. Sun Yat Sen, Lin Sen -- people didn't hear about -- and then Chiang Kai-Shek.

James H. Billington:

So, you were secretary to the son of Lin Sen.

John W. Kluge:

Right.

James H. Billington:

Okay, and what you were on the way to the subway or something.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah, I was on the way, running to the subway. And, the doors closed and I missed it. He said, "When does another subway come?" I said, "in about three minutes." He said, "Why do we run when another subway comes in three minutes." In other words --

James H. Billington:

-- American compulsion to get there at all costs --

John W. Kluge:

Yeah, right.

James H. Billington:

-- even if you have a heart attack.

John W. Kluge:

Right. Well, you know, I learned that patience is not only the middle name, but the first name, the last name, as well of the Chinese. They just have a different point of view. And --

James H. Billington:

Describe that relationship with the son of the president of China in your college years. That's quite a remarkable thing to be doing --

John W. Kluge:

Well, I think one of these books has a lot on that. Yeah, I brought him to Detroit, and met Alvin McCauley, head of Packard. Head of General Motors. Old Henry Ford.

James H. Billington:

How did you have entree to all these people at a very young --

John W. Kluge:

Through Allen Crowe. And, if you try the economics of it, he was, and as a matter of fact, I think I told you, when we pulled into Michigan Central in Detroit and the shades in the sleeping car were all down --

James H. Billington:

Your family first arrived in Detroit.

John W. Kluge:

No, no, no. This is when I brought Lin to Detroit.

James H. Billington:

Oh, the son of the, yes --

John W. Kluge:

I put up the shade, and I saw all of these people. And, I said to Lin, "There's got to be somebody important on this train." Little did I think it was for Lin, you know. So, anyhow, we want to the Parke Davis pharmaceutical company and met up with the head of that. And, we, well, there's a lot of that stuff.

James H. Billington:

What was his reaction? What did he say to you about the impression of seeing Detroit, the great Assembly line, the modern city of American manufacturing?

John W. Kluge:

Oh, he thought it was terrific. And, he, everything with him was percentage. We'd walk on the street, and he'd say, "That girl is eighty-five percent, not eighty-five percent, fifty percent. . ."

James H. Billington:

-- percent what?

John W. Kluge:

Well, on the point is on a scale, he always talked about --

James H. Billington:

[Inaudible; both talking together.]

John W. Kluge:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember taking him to Farmington, Michigan. And, he, we visited, on the way to visiting some people, he needed a haircut. And, this barber had him, you know, not [facing] the mirror, but looking the other way as he was cutting his hair. And, he cut it, and he looked, and this great big barber, and he was kind of a small guy. And, he looked at him in the mirror and he said, "You son of a bitch." He cut the hair too short. He was pretty good at American slang.

James H. Billington:

I was going to say, pretty good command of the way Americans talk to each other when they're not too happy. Having talked, then, more recently with communist leaders in China on some of your trips, what is your sense of the continuity and change in that culture?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I think, along the east coast of Shanghai, Hong Kong, all that area, Guangzhou, you know, is very entrepreneurial. And, successive mayors of Shanghai have become leaders in Beijing. I remember, I had my boat in Shanghai.

James H. Billington:

This was roughly --

John W. Kluge:

When was this?

James H. Billington:

Just roughly.

John W. Kluge:

I think it was sometime in the late eighties. And, I invited the mayor of Shanghai on the boat and he couldn't come. Beijing advised him that the boat was foreign territory. So, I had to go to his office in Shanghai. And, you know, it's very interesting. I, I went to Beijing one time. And, when you fly into China on a private plane, I don't know whether it's changed right now. But, if you wanted to go from Beijing to Shanghai, you had to fly out to Hong Kong first and then go back to Shanghai. In other words, you couldn't go within China. Well, I flew into Beijing, and I went to a Bat Mitzvah along the Mongolian desert. One thousand miles from --

James H. Billington:

That is a major center of Jewish culture --

John W. Kluge:

Yes. It is. A thousand miles from Beijing. And, I don't know whether you know this, but the rabbi of that place died and a priest took over the temple. Because, he could speak Hebrew.

James H. Billington:

Now, where is this exactly? This is a thousand miles into --

John W. Kluge:

I can't remember.

James H. Billington:

It's in the interior of China. Deep interior of China.

John W. Kluge:

Well, it's right at the edge of the Gobi Desert. The hottest place in August. The hottest place I've ever been to in my life.

James H. Billington:

And, there was a Jewish temple there, actively functioning, with a congregation.

John W. Kluge:

No, a thousand years --

James H. Billington:

Ago.

John W. Kluge:

So, a friend of mine in New York married a -- he's Jewish -- married a Chinese woman. And, he wanted his daughter to do the Bat Mitzvah--

James H. Billington:

Bat Mitzvah.

John W. Kluge:

Bat Mitzvah in this town. And, a matter of fact, people came from all over -- Sharon was there. This girl spoke Hebrew, English, Chinese. She went to Harvard, and she graduated from Harvard. I don't know what she's doing now. But, it was quite an experience, I can tell you. And, I had to take a train all the way from Beijing to this place. One thousand miles. And, every time the train stopped, the air conditioning stopped. So, it was something.

James H. Billington:

Quite an adventure. What do you, in terms, what other parts of the world did, you as a person who's constantly accumulating new interests. Are there any parts of the world that we haven't discussed that really especially fascinate you? Whether you investigating it or not, just --

John W. Kluge:

Well, I tell you, I had said to Baba Ali at Columbia, who's the son of the war lord of Kurdistan, remember the English defeated the Kurds in 1920. He was the heshek mamut. And, I said to him, "I will meet you at noon time." I don't know what -- July fifteenth or whatever it was. "I'll be at this little hotel." Little hotel maybe only had eight rooms. And, it was in Al Rushid Street in Baghdad. "I will meet you there," which I did.

James H. Billington:

This was when, roughly?

John W. Kluge:

1936.

James H. Billington:

Oh, you were in Baghdad in thirty-six.

John W. Kluge:

As a matter of fact, I was in Cairo, I was in Israel when it was Palestine. And, I was in Tel Aviv when there were camels on the street. So, and I did all of these places, Lebanon, and I lived a month with the Kurds up in the hills. And, of course, I was an infidel, you know. And, there was a State Department fellow, by the name, I think, of Cunningham, who was killed just a month before.

James H. Billington:

What were you doing up there?

John W. Kluge:

I was there, was a friend of Sheik Baba Ali was --

James H. Billington:

What did you, what did you get out of that?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I, what I got out of it was the, you know, different culture. For example, Baba Ali had great eyes and he could hunt like crazy. But, we went fishing one day. And, he put dynamite in the water. And, that's how he went fishing. And, all these fish just came to the top. You know, it was quite an experience. I said to him one day, I said, "You know, Baba Ali, I saw this beautiful girl in the courtyard." He said, "Let me tell you, you want to get out of here dead or alive, just talk about that." He said, "That's my sister and you never saw her. Don't ever speak about it, because, somebody will kill you." So, I can tell you one thing. I don't know whether he had a brother, but if I'm going to talk in my sleep, it will be about his brother who was never -- he didn't have a brother. He finally became the head of communications and transportation for Iraq. But, you know, the Kurds have been fighting forever. They live up in those mountains. And, they're fighting today. I remember, I came to Jordan. I visited him in his summer home and --

James H. Billington:

This was much later.

John W. Kluge:

He said to me --

James H. Billington:

This is Hussein, King Hussein --

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. "Let's go over to Baghdad, see Hussein there." I said, "Well, you know, I just assume not go." But --

James H. Billington:

This was before Saddam Hussein turned real sour. It was the early days of --

John W. Kluge:

Yeah, his early days. And, you know, Hussein, the King of Jordan, had a place, and I guess she still has that place, outside of London. And, she called me up. I called her up. And, I said, "I'm here in London." She said, "Come out to dinner." I said, "I have two men with me." And, she said, "Bring them." I said, "Well we'll get a car and come on out." She said, "No, I'll send you a car." She sent a car, Mercedes, that was driven by a terrorist driver. And, it was, you know, had all this armor on it, so it must have been quite heavy. And, this was, he was on her staff. A graduate of Yale. And, he was a football player. And, he sat in front next to the driver. And, he's got a neck this big. And, Stu and I were in the back. [Makes a blowing sound.] And, this guy's neck got redder and redder. And, I had said to Stu, "You know, we're going to get killed in this car, we might as well laugh about it." So, going in, I said, "You know, anybody could go in. No, no, three feet of steel, if the guy doesn't want you to come in, three feet of steel come front end, you'll total your car." Well, on the way back, I said to the driver, it was dark. I said, "Do you mind driving slower. I want to see the countryside." Couldn't see anything, you know. It was black.

James H. Billington:

We're conducting this interview just a little over a month after the September 11th tragedy at the World Trade Towers. And, an atmosphere where people are tremendously concerned here in the United States about terrorism and about their own various vulnerabilities in the wake of this unique and horrible tragedy. We're also at a time when the stock market has taken a dip. So, let me ask you just two questions, if I could. One is, what do you think the overall -- what do you think the long run effect, is this a sea change in the American psychology, or is this just a very difficult adjustment that we're going to have to make to our vulnerabilities? And, the second question is what about the stock market? Are we just going through -- and, in general, the economy. Is this going to have a lasting negative effect on the economy and the market, or is this just one of the, in effect, one of the periodic dips that we've seen come in the past?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I, you know, to dramatize some of the people on television and radio talk about it's going to be an absolute sea change, what I think will happen is that we will be more cautious. But, as we cut off the funds of these terrorists and as we also apprehend some of these cells, and this is a long process, life will go on in this country. It's not the end of the world. Sure, terrorism is putting a lot of fear in people. But, New York is coming back. Life in the theater is coming back. It takes months. But, actually, you know, people want to be happy. They want to live a normal life. And, as a matter of fact, if you go out in parts of the United States now, they are conscious of the attack and maybe another attack. But, you can't just sit there, and the Americans won't just sit there. They will go on with their lives. The stock market was going to go down anyhow. The economics cycle of ten years of growth was coming to an end, and the September 11th attack just made it worse. We'll see unemployment. We'll see more unemployment. But, we won't reach the proportion of unemployment that Europe has, Germany, France, as an example. So, a year from now, unless we have successive attacks, a year from now, we'll see an upturn. And, the upturn will come about by corporations returning to more profits. And, let's face it, a lot of companies are reducing their overhead. And, with the reducing of overhead and the expectations of higher sales and profits, a year from now, a year and a half from now, it's a great period for companies to tighten down their hatches, so to speak. But, let's face it, right now, I feel this country is more united than it's been since World War II. There is a, well, you see in the Congress. The bickering that was going on in the Congress on a lot of things isn't going on right now. The partisan politics isn't as much en vogue as it was before September 11th. [Change to tape 3.]

James H. Billington:

The old Marxist critiques of capitalism have been pretty well gotten rid of and discredited. But, there's a new general sort of critique of globalization. I'm not just talking about the demonstrators, but a lot of critics, you read it on the pages, the op ed pages, of the New York Times and elsewhere practically every day, where they say that, even with the striking and demonstrable successes of market capitalism and open democratic societies, there is a basis to the objection, not simply in the Islamic extremist movement, but in the general resentment, continued resentment, of the poorer nations that are not participating. What do you think realistically can be done over the reasonably not too distant future to ameliorate the continuing gnawing poverty and, in some cases, increasing falling behind of the poorer nations and the poorer parts of the world? Not only in terms of their poverty, but in terms of diseases like AIDS and others that are spreading, for instance, in Africa. Do you have any kind of sense of how that continuing sort of global problem can be ameliorated?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I think we should make a real effort of the haves, in behalf of the have nots, in the field of health. Drug companies are finally doing something with the cost of drugs in the matter of AIDS and other health problems that are in Africa and Egypt and different countries within Africa. And, that's ongoing, that has to be part of our national/international, not only compassion, but it's in self-interest that we know that poverty breeds leaderships that is constantly attacking the have not nations. And, that's what happening in Afghanistan. In other words, we can't leave the country that we did after supporting people to fight the Soviets. We, and I think larger companies, are doing something, some of them more than others, but that the US commerce becomes really more of a global commerce that we put factories, for example, GE put a lamp factory in Budapest. That was a great lift for unemployment, and they did this early on. American business and we're not the only ones, but the Germans have to do it, the English have to do it, and be in Russia, regardless of their problem. Now, Putin is, for example, trying to establish a standard laws and that is very important, whether it's in China or whether it's in Russia. Or, because, let's face it, both these nations are very vulnerable. They're vulnerable in changing their government. They're vulnerable in feeding their people. Russia, with only a hundred and forty-eight people, is a third world nation.

James H. Billington:

One hundred and forty-eight million.

John W. Kluge:

A hundred and forty-eight million -- It's a poor country -- with nuclear power. That's a very heady combination. So, we, in other words, it would be easy for anybody to ignore these areas, whether it's Africa or whether it's Bosnia, you name it, Turkey. But, to establish businesses in these areas gives employment to people. It gives respect to these people. You could say what you want, and I am not in any favor of Bin Laden, but we have to understand and not just talk about, look, we're after the Taliban, we're after the terrorists, we're after Bin Laden, we're after the networks that they have established. But, then, we have to recognize that Saudi Arabia is an autocratic country -- That the governments of these countries have to also become more democratic. They have to not gain their power by command and demand. But, by respect and by having a vote in the welfare of their, in which, the country they live. In other words, we, the world, I'm talking about the world of haves, have to know that if the have nots are forever there, they're going to affect our lifestyle no matter what. And, their unhappiness is going to show in many ways.

James H. Billington:

Last question concerns your remarkable series of artistic, cultural, interests. I addition to being, having acted, being interested in entertainment of various sorts, and education of various sorts, you have a great many collections. We're gathered here in a eight thousand acre, in a sense, re-creation of the geography and the atmosphere of Thomas Jefferson, very close to Monticello, the beautiful landscaped view that could almost have been from Jefferson's time, which you've, in effect, re-created. That's here. You've got collections of everything ranging from Aboriginal art to, I guess, pipes that you've donated to Duke University. What have you found most satisfying about those non-commercial things that you've gathered in and gathered around you. And, what has been the overall philosophy or the feeling which you've had that's impelled you to collect so many beautiful things?

John W. Kluge:

Well, you know, I would not get a kick [out]of buying a ten million dollar French impressionist painting. I get much more of a kick out of collecting art that's not fashionable. That's why I'm in sixth and eighth century AD ceramics. I'm in bronzes and in Greek and Roman vases. In Aboriginal art. In architectural drawings. In California, artists back forty years ago that were not only painters, but they were weavers. They were wood workers. They were in electrolysis. I'm not interested in what's in fashion. I'm always looking for things that people might not be interested in. For example, the museum I built of carriages, this is not cars. This is carriages, which came from the turn of the century. And, in other words, I also think that when those things become more fashionable, that art will then eventually have a greater value as well. And, but, you know, I think I'm basically a revolutionist.

James H. Billington:

A revolutionist?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. When I was in college, I was a communist. And, then, when they started burning the books, I thought that was a lot of nonsense. But, I've never been the kind of conformist. I'm radical about all the things I do, I think. I think that's probably my background coming here as a foreigner. You have to struggle with various things, whether it's my education or whatever it might be. Life has not been that easy. And, while I collect things, I don't own them. I never owned anything. And, therefore, when I leave it, it doesn't bother me. In other words, I'm not hanging on --

James H. Billington:

But, you do technically own it. I mean, you bought these things.

John W. Kluge:

I own it, but I'm also giving it away. The thing is that there's no rehearsal. When you're gone, you're gone. And, people say to me, "When you have these different homes, don't you miss it?" I say, "No. I'm not at the home until I'm there." And, somewhere or the other, these other places don't exist. So, I've been a collector, for example of Indian, this is just a few of them. I don't know how they happen to be here, but I --

James H. Billington:

This is American Indian?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah, this is all American Indian. And, they're from different tribes.

James H. Billington:

Statuettes.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. I'm trying to remember where I have them. I have them, I know I had a number of them in Munich. And, then I collected some African art.

James H. Billington:

So, in a way you've brought together collections which you're, in a sense, going to then pass on to some broader public institution.

John W. Kluge:

Which I did with the Australian --

James H. Billington:

The Australian -- [inaudible] -- what you're going to do with this estate here --

John W. Kluge:

Right, I've given this away. Yeah. Yeah.

James H. Billington:

Tell me a little bit about how this has origins in your radical student past? I hadn't known about that. You came from Detroit.

John W. Kluge:

Yes.

James H. Billington:

So, I guess you got to the seed of some of the rough life of labor in the thirties, in the deep Depression? So, was that a factor in sort --

John W. Kluge:

Well, to me, for example --

James H. Billington:

It's hard to --

John W. Kluge:

Yeah, yeah --

James H. Billington:

-- capitalist system as having a radical student past.

John W. Kluge:

Absolutely. And, I was, no, I think it came from a sense of fairness and idealism. I think, if you're not an idealist in your youth, you know, if you don't believe that the world could be a perfect place and communism to a young mind was an ideal vehicle. But, then, it got to be --

James H. Billington:

So, what did you do? Did you attend meetings --

John W. Kluge:

Yes, I attended meetings. Well, I never [attended] demonstrations. But, I attended meetings. I remember setting up notices for meetings and things of that kind.

James H. Billington:

When did you sort of break with that and --

John W. Kluge:

During actually the latter part of my education at Columbia. Because, they started burning books. And, of course, I knew all these people, Wexler, you know, later on became a writer for a newspaper in New York. And, there were others who never were, I was never a card carrying member. But, I was certainly a fellow traveler.

James H. Billington:

Did you meet in that period any of the famous New York intellectuals who were fellow travelers and many of them actually were in the Party?

John W. Kluge:

Not that much. But, I want to tell you, another person that really excited me was Thomas --

James H. Billington:

Norman Thomas.

John W. Kluge:

Who was a socialist.

James H. Billington:

Yes, oh, yes.

John W. Kluge:

And, I thought he was tremendous.

James H. Billington:

He was, of course, a deeply kind of moral socialist. Not at all the sort of communist --

John W. Kluge:

Yeah, that's right.

James H. Billington:

-- they never liked him much.

John W. Kluge:

That's right.

James H. Billington:

Did you ever hear him or meet him?

John W. Kluge:

Yes, I did. And, I met him also. I met him in my high school days.

James H. Billington:

Were there any other figures, any New York intellectuals, [Lionel] Trilling, Sidney Hook, any of those people --

John W. Kluge:

No, I never met them. My early days, I also met, because, I was writing, Katherine Cornell, Amos and Andy, Sir Wilfred Brambell - I met a number of these people [and] interviewed them.

James H. Billington:

Any of those people impress you personally? This is apart from just general interest, their stature and the entertainment and so forth --

John W. Kluge:

Well, I tell you, Amos and Andy, I remember, I said, "What did you do before you got into this business." Well, he said, "I used to deliver meat packages to people." "And, what did Andy do?" "He picked up the packages that I dropped on the way." You know. But, in other words, they were funny in life.

James H. Billington:

They were what?

John W. Kluge:

They were very comical in life. Katherine Cornell, I didn't make too much headway with, because, she was staying at the Book-Cadillac Hotel in Detroit. And, she had a suite and it was dark and I stepped on one of her Dachshunds. And, that was no way to get in favor of Kathy Cornell.

James H. Billington:

You were trying to enlist these people for broadcast purposes?

John W. Kluge:

No, no, I wrote for --

James H. Billington:

Oh, you wrote --

John W. Kluge:

-- for high school.

James H. Billington:

Oh, tell me a little bit about your writing career. We never heard about that. We got one more thing to unearth here.

John W. Kluge:

Well, those days --

James H. Billington:

You were writing, trying to get her to --

John W. Kluge:

No, no. I wrote for the Northwestern High School paper, and I --

James H. Billington:

Oh, this was in your high school.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah, and I interviewed these --

James H. Billington:

You interviewed these people.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. Let's see, there was Texas Ginan[?]. Did you ever hear of Texas Ginan? Well, you know, I was quite young, of course, and she was in a suite at the Book-Cadillac Hotel. And, she was changing her dress and she was in back of the screen. And, I was embarrassed as hell, because she was changing her clothes, and she kept, this was the interview, while she was changing clothes, I would ask her questions.

James H. Billington:

And, you were a high school student?

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

Rather precocious, I would say.

John W. Kluge:

So, well, I also did this, you know, for twelve years or so, I walked with a dictionary under my arm.

James H. Billington:

You walked --

John W. Kluge:

With a dictionary under my arm. In other words, I was determined not to have an accent. I was determined not to be European at all, you know. And, I worked on it. And, these interviews were also --

James H. Billington:

Part of your acculturation, if you may.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah. And I interviewed different people, like Murphy. Murphy use to be --

James H. Billington:

George Murphy, was the --

John W. Kluge:

No, George Murphy, California. But, this was Murphy who became a chief justice of the Supreme Court. He was the mayor of Detroit.

James H. Billington:

Oh, oh, yes. And, you interviewed him, as well. Who, of the people you interviewed as a high school student, what was your most memorable interview? And, what was one that -- made an impact on you, or the substance of what they had to say.

John W. Kluge:

I am trying to remember.

James H. Billington:

Did you do any of that at Columbia --

John W. Kluge:

No, no.

James H. Billington:

This was all in Detroit.

John W. Kluge:

Well, when I was in Columbia, I did all kinds of jobs. But, I went through Columbia for four years. And, at the end of it, I had seven thousand dollars in the bank. And, I was always gambling. I gambled with the sugar heirs from Cuba.

James H. Billington:

You had ended up ahead.

John W. Kluge:

I was never -- am never a professional gambler. And, I would never go to Vegas, that kind of thing.

James H. Billington:

Was this dice or cards --

John W. Kluge:

This was cards, cards.

James H. Billington:

-- psychology and so forth.

John W. Kluge:

Poker, yeah.

James H. Billington:

Poker.

John W. Kluge:

Just recently, in July, I was down in Barbara Sinatra's house in Malibu, and she has a poker game every Sunday.

James H. Billington:

Who is this had the --

John W. Kluge:

Barbara Sinatra.

James H. Billington:

Oh, this was when, about --

John W. Kluge:

This was last July. And, she loves to play cards. And, she always has producers, writers, and entertainers as other participants. I hadn't seen Steve and Eydie Gorme. Do you remember them?

James H. Billington:

Oh, sure.

John W. Kluge:

They were there. And, I used to play bridge years ago. And, I remember Malcolm Forbes had the boat. And, he had Simeon on the boat, you know, who's now gone back to Bulgaria. This was the president, and the prime minister. Very bright guy. Very terrific fellow. He's going to do well in Bulgaria, which is a small country. And, I had the king of Greece on my boat, well. They called over and said, would I be the fourth in bridge. And, so lucky, I think that her husband, remember?

James H. Billington:

Archie _______________[inaudible]

John W. Kluge:

Archie. Very, he's a great guy. And, then Malcolm and one of his sons. Anyhow, I was the fourth. I said, "you know, I haven't played in twenty-five years." "Well, come on over." I did. I remember, I bet six clubs and made it. And, [he] said, "You know, we've been around con artists before." And, so, I never could convince Malcolm that I hadn't played in twenty-five years. I always liked Malcolm Forbes, and you know, I have a picture here of Hubert [Humphrey]. And, Malcolm always had big parties. And, I remember Hubert was there. And, he said a few words. And, he said, "I think I'm the only vice president here," because they were all chairmans and presidents, you know. I liked Hubert very much. You know, he was the mayor of Minneapolis one time. And, 3M is a very conservative outfit. And, they thought he was the best mayor ever for many of us.

James H. Billington:

I think we ought to liberate you. Is there anything else you'd like to add of the things we discussed or things we should have asked you about? Each time we asked you a question, I unearthed something new in you writing career, a new one. And, what have we not asked you about that's been important for you? Is there anything?

John W. Kluge:

Well, my foundation, it's focus is minority education. And, that's really what I'm all about. I feel that education is the tool that makes the differentiation among peoples. Infinitesimal, if you have, eventually you can be on a par with anybody else. And, certainly, Colin Powell is an example. But, you know, quite often the black community calls him a sort of Uncle Tom. "He's not one of us." In other words, if you get too far ahead of the community, there seems to be a negative effect that they feel. Well, at Columbia, which was the first school, that I really did this in a big way, of the four thousand student body, which Columbia has in its college, two hundred will, at all times, be a minority. Not only blacks, but Hispanics, Orientals, you know. And, they come from Africa, they come from all over. And, that's really what I'd like to leave as a legacy. And, that is my heirs will have some money but, very, just enough to get by. I don't find it either that I feel right that my heirs should be denied the opportunity of being productive themselves, just to hand heirs money, to me, is just not where I'm at. And, especially, my own background. [Tape changes sides.] For example, the medical school here, I said, "Yeah, I'll help you. But, it's got to be for minorities." The same thing, by the way, I'm going to do for Sloane Kettering. Doctors and minorities. And, I'm interested in building role models. I don't have to tell you, until the Williams girls and of course also the person that died from Richmond -- tennis player.

James H. Billington:

Arthur Ashe.

John W. Kluge:

Arthur Ashe. I mean, they've become role models. In golf, I don't have to tell you what is happening in golf. And I've been this way for many years. For example, the Globetrotters, believe it or not, we put a girl in there. And, the Ice Capades, I said, "You know, there are no black skaters." They said, "Well, there aren't any around." Well, I said, "We're going to train some," which we did. And, so, you can't just talk about it. You have to implement it.

James H. Billington:

Well, you know, you've helped us at the Library with this leadership program doing exactly the same thing in the library community, which has actually been reducing its minority leadership. What we've created now, thanks to you, a vehicle for training leaders that are much needed, because, actually, they are playing sports, minorities are playing sports, but, they're not getting as much into the academic profession --

John W. Kluge:

That's right.

James H. Billington:

-- information professions. And, this is, of course, so central to the whole educational thing. So, you certainly are helping in that --

John W. Kluge:

Well, they're active in the entertainment area.

James H. Billington:

Right. And, also, the digitization effort which you've helped create at the Library is disproportionately interesting to inner city kids, because they're playing Nintendo games at the arcades. They're familiar with keyboards and screens, but they're not familiar dealing with positive content --

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

-- with educational value. So, there's a consistency there in the kinds of things that you've been supporting that focuses on education and focuses on broadening the opportunities for it. So, it's really, that's really a wonderful, wonderful contribution.

John W. Kluge:

Well, you know, I don't have to tell you that, and I'm not carrying a torch for the black community, but, for many years, they were neglected in this country. Even in the art field. In Australia, the Aboriginal artists were ignored by Australian government. Now, since the world has taken on the appreciation of Aboriginal art, all at once, even, I think, not long ago, the Australian government put an embargo on certain paintings to come out of Australia.

James H. Billington:

Interesting thing you were saying, that you actually went and kind of lived with these communities and commissioned the arts, so you didn't just buy it, you actually stimulated its production.

John W. Kluge:

I did. I went there twice.

James H. Billington:

When was this?

John W. Kluge:

I can't even remember. In the eighties. Early eighties.

James H. Billington:

So, you went twice, in any case.

John W. Kluge:

Yeah.

James H. Billington:

Supposing you were looking for fresh artistic challenges or artistic things that weren't fashionable, projecting ahead -- Are there any that currently interest you or that you think, if you had the time and opportunity, you'd be interested in exploring? Where do you see interesting things happening in the artistic and cultural world?

John W. Kluge:

Well, I think, I'm not as current today as I was a couple, a few years ago. And, partly because I don't even know where to put the art. I have eight homes. And, frankly, I have offices, and as I sold television, for example, I had to take all kinds of paintings back. And, I've had sales of art. I've been busy, either giving it away or selling it. And, I used to go down to Soho, I used to go down in Los Angeles and some of the new art and, because, it's new, it doesn't mean it's good. And, you know, a demonstrable difference is really the important thing. But, that doesn't mean it has to be bad. It has to be demonstrably good. I don't have to tell you, if I were an artist, I wouldn't want to be a "me too" artist. Maybe that's an ego, I don't know. But, I know that's what makes me function. The demonstrable difference, and whenever I talk to people, even today, instead of saying, "Hello," I say, "What's new." I only want to know what's new. And, one of the reasons I've never written a book is I don't want to go back to all that stuff. I want to know what I'm doing tomorrow.

James H. Billington:

Well, we want to thank you today for relating all of you yesterdays and wish you the best for tomorrow as well.

John W. Kluge:

Thank you.

James H. Billington:

Thank you, Mr. Kluge.