Great conversations: chamber music / Eugene Istomin [video recording]

• Part 1. CAMARADERIE
• Part 2. THE STRING QUARTET
• Part 3. MASTERPIECES
• Part 4. PIANO AND STRINGS
• Part 5. INTIMACY
• Part 6. IDEAS
• FOOTNOTES

ISTOMIN:

I am Eugene Istomin, and I am very pleased to be asked by the Librarian and the Head of the Music Division to be the host of this series of dialogues and encounters at the Library of Congress.Today, in this beautiful room, the Whittall Pavilion, where some of the most precious string instruments are displayed, I have asked several eminent colleagues to join me in an extemporaneous discussion on chamber music. The Library possesses some crowning jewels in manuscripts relevant to our subject. We agree that it is important to remember where we came from; how our European roots and background have now become universal roots. I feel honored to be joined by my colleagues: violinists Pamela Frank, Jaime Laredo, Arnold Steinhardt; cellists Lynn Harrell and Sharon Robinson, and pianists Claude Frank and Joseph Kalichstein.

ISTOMIN:

I'd like to talk a little bit about the Brahms Sextet ¹ , which is a special favorite of mine and I suspect everybody here.

STEINHARDT:

The most exciting chamber music experience I probably ever had was playing this piece with Casals ² in Puerto Rico with Sascha Schneider, ³ I think Leslie Parnas, ⁴ Michael Tree, ⁵ and Milton Thomas. ⁶ And we all had ideas, but Casals' power as a musician just was, was overwhelming, and we looked to him for our inspiration, and for our wisdom, and there was really that sense of this giant musician there, and that we should just go along with his ideas.

ISTOMIN:

I wonder how much of it is the personality, and how much of it is the desire to bring out of yourself, bringing the best out of yourself in playing in that kind of experience. Because you feel that, that something exceptional is happening.

P. FRANK:

I always thought of chamber music as a way to combat loneliness. I mean, the idea of chamber music is to be with other people, and I really think we weren't meant to, well, we weren't put on this earth to play by ourselves. It's also why I don't play any solo Bach or solo anything, because I like the interaction. And so the word camaraderie, I think, is the reason for doing it.

ROBINSON:

But also it's the best way to learn new stuff from your colleagues.

P. FRANK:

Yeah.

ROBINSON:

I think in schools there should be the most emphasis on learning from your colleagues, more than from your teacher, because you learn so much more...

P. FRANK:

Yep. Yep.

ROBINSON:

...from everybody your age.

C. FRANK:

I once played the Beethoven A major sonata, ⁷ cello sonata, with Lenny Rose. ⁸ And I subscribe to what you said, so when he asked for opinions, I said, "I don't like your opening." And he said, "I do." [Laughter.]

P. FRANK:

End of discussion.

C. FRANK:

That was the end of that story.

ISTOMIN:

You don't deserve...

LAREDO:

That's very funny.

KALICHSTEIN:

I have a wonderful Henryk Szeryng ⁹ story with, about that kind of camaraderie. He was a great violinist, very peculiar individual, as we all know.

ISTOMIN:

No argument.

KALICHSTEIN:

And the only time I played with him, the first and only, we were put together by happenstance, and of course I was a very young man and he was this great maestro. So I, in the first rehearsal I didn't say a word for about two hours. He had wonderful ideas, and we - and finally there was a spot in the Brahms G major violin sonata ¹⁰ where I dared open my mouth and said something. And there was total silence. I could hear in his mind, you know, the wheels going: "This little punk is telling me how to play the phrase?!" And he said, "You know, let's try it." So we tried it my way. And again total silence. And then he said, "Oh, it's wonderful, my dear Joseph, how you make me play the way I wanted to." [Laughter.]

KALICHSTEIN:

That was his answer to a suggestion.

ISTOMIN:

Sometimes with, when I was playing with Stern, with Isaac, ¹¹ the best performances were those in which nothing was said afterward. Nothing. And when we were playing the "Triple" Concerto ¹² with Lenny Rose, we looked after Lenny Rose like he was our little baby that was the most sensitive and the most nervous about that part, the most exposed part. It's - whatever arguments we had -and we had plenty of arguments, lots of arguments together- the minute we got on the stage, it was a unit that came together for no other reason: for the dedication to the music and dedication to oneself, to one's partners. We became brothers in that, and we could hit each other afterward, hit each other and slap each other in the ear and curse at each other afterwards, but we were brothers. And that's, to me, is the essence of what the relationship in the group playing chamber music is, certainly in the Trio. We were all three of us being out...showing off and doing the maximum that we could with our, with our solos and our things, and whoever had the solo, the other person, other people dropped down, but it was an act, a feat of virtuosity on everybody's part to make it as good as it could be.

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Part 2.  THE STRING QUARTET

ISTOMIN:

The most abundant repertoire of masterpieces has been created for the String Quartet. In fact, quintets, sextets, septets, octets are simply outgrowths of the string quartet. In the string quartet, somehow it's different, and Arnold maybe can tell us ways in which it is different.

STEINHARDT:

You know, when you talk about what humans do, there are two sort of things that I think of as major human endeavors, and that is the sort of heroic thing of doing something on your own, and then, so that, if you play a cello suite on your own, that's a kind of heroic, rugged, individualist thing, or a piano sonata-- or a piano recital, which to me is an incredibly scary thing to contemplate.

ISTOMIN:

It's the hardest thing...it's true.

STEINHARDT:

And the other thing, though, is, is to do something together, to do something as a group, a group endeavor. I mean, we got to the moon because we did something as a group, and all kinds of, most of the things we do really aren't individual, they are group efforts. And I think the string quartet is the honed down essence of a group. It's got everything that one needs in music, but nothing in excess. It's all the meat and none of the fat, or it's the atom to the molecule - all these expressions which don't come very close to describing the sense of the sheer, pure essence of music. And that's probably one of the reasons why it's so hard, because it's completely connected, interdependent, whereas, speaking of Trios, yes, it's chamber music, and you have to work very hard to play together and think together, but you can go off on these flights of soloistic fancy very often.

ISTOMIN:

I would like to ask you what you think happened that, to change the situation from the time when the Joachim Quartet, which was the paradigm, named after Joachim, ¹³ which led to the Flonzaley ¹⁴ Quartet, to the Léner ¹⁵ Quartet, to the Busch ¹⁶ Quartet, to the That Quartet, I don't know which other quartets, having, bearing the name of their first violin. How that changed, and what made it change.

STEINHARDT:

Well, imagine what I heard that Joachim did. He would go to another country and pick up three other people on occasion, and that would be the Joachim String Quartet. And I mean, just imagine doing that. It would be unheard of today. But you had the idea of a very powerful personality, musical personality, and three acolytes, and...

ISTOMIN:

That was the Busch Quartet.

STEINHARDT:

And the Busch, and the Busch Quartet was a wonderful quartet, but there was no question who the boss was.

ISTOMIN:

That's right.

STEINHARDT:

And you heard it on records. It wasn't just- he was always predominant. And I think now, if you would name a quartet after one of the members of the group, a lot of eyebrows would be raised, certainly. You wouldn't do that nowadays, because it's not in the spirit of how we perceive chamber music to be.

KALICHSTEIN:

It is quite miraculous that the string quartets who are successful artistically nowadays can still come up with one voice. This is not music by committee, although the rehearsals are. But the result is not.

ISTOMIN:

No. No, no. It mustn't be. It wouldn't be a good quartet if it weren't.

KALICHSTEIN:

Whereas when it was someone like Busch, it was easier to understand. It was, you know, his performance, and unfortunately for him, he needed three other people to bring it about, so he hired them!

ISTOMIN:

And they followed him exactly.

P. FRANK:

I just heard a concert by the new incarnation of the Tokyo String Quartet. And the middle voices are still the same, Kikuei Ikeda ¹⁷ and Kazuhide Isomura. ¹⁸ And it still sounds like the Tokyo Quartet, because of the middle voices. So I...

ISTOMIN:

What about the upper voices?

ROBINSON:

They've changed.

P. FRANK:

They've changed.

SPEAKER:

They're different.

P. FRANK:

They've gone through...

ROBINSON:

Upper and lower.

P. FRANK:

...upper and lower have gone through three, two or three changes. But it's, I was amazed at how it actually retained its Tokyo String Quartet-ness by the inner voices that have remained the same.

KALICHSTEIN:

In a funny way...

SPEAKER:

No argument.

KALICHSTEIN:

Although the string quartet is the sum, supposedly, of chamber music, it's probably not such. I think the Sextet that we have here is much more of chamber music. You have six individuals playing, and you're not aware of the six individuals. They're really, it's such, there's something about the string sextet sonority that, while each one is individual, they are all really part of a team. They're all going to the moon... the string quartet is so scary, in a sense, because it is so...

STEINHARDT:

Don't make such a face when you say that.

KALICHSTEIN:

Scary? The word scary? [Laughter.]

ISTOMIN:

Here in the Library, the Budapest Quartet ¹⁹ was the first official quartet of the Library of Congress.

STEINHARDT:

They considered themselves the first truly democratic string quartet. I don't know whether it was actually true, but they were certainly the most famous of the first democratic string quartet.

ISTOMIN:

It was formed, I believe, in 1932 or '33. By 1937, they had instigated a series of radio programs across the United States. That's the first time that string quartets were heard that way in the United States. So it's no wonder that they became the string quartet of its time, thanks to the Library, thanks to Sascha Schneider and the promotion of things, thanks to the fact that they were a great, great quartet. But that all started and happened here.

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Part 3.  MASTERPIECES

ISTOMIN:

We have here on the table manuscripts of the Haydn Sixth Quartet, ²⁰ Op. 64; the Mozart C major Quintet ²¹ (my gosh!); the Bartók Fifth String Quartet; ²² the Schoenberg Second String Quartet; ²³ the Brahms Sextet; ²⁴ and the Mendelssohn Octet. ²⁵ What are your thoughts about this? Including you, Yossi, and you, Claude. And me. I wish I could play all those pieces.

C. FRANK:

So do I! On the one hand, one wishes one could. On the other hand, one is glad not to, not to make them imperfect. Well, I mean, every one of them, every one of them one could not live without. I think this, I have no prosaic way, nor any advanced way, of expressing my love for it.

KALICHSTEIN:

The fact that chamber music, until about 50 years ago, was separated for a hundred years from the other music -- you know, there was solo music... this was not always like that. And I think for the composers who are here on the table, for the Brahms and Mendelssohn and Beethoven, there was no difference. They - and the Beethoven Fourth Piano Concerto ²⁶ is a chamber music piece.

ISTOMIN:

Yes, in a way, in a way.

KALICHSTEIN:

Yeah.

C. FRANK:

It's very much à propos of Rudolf Serkin's ²⁷ answer once, when he said, "What do you think of chamber music?" Because somebody was arrogant enough to ask him, "What do you think of chamber music?" He said, "Could you repeat that question?" [Laughter.]

C. FRANK:

The interviewer said, "Well, what do you think of chamber music?" And he said, "Chamber music? But chamber music is music."

ISTOMIN:

Yeah.

C. FRANK:

You know? Chamber music is music. Which works the other way around, too. Music is chamber music. Well, these pieces happen to be among the best pieces by their particular composers. In a way shows how much they thought of, how much they liked to play for strings.

ISTOMIN:

Very good point, indeed. Very good point.

KALICHSTEIN:

What about... they're works for strings by pianists. That's very fascinating.

ISTOMIN:

We'll get to the pianists in a minute. But...

KALICHSTEIN:

No, but I mean, it's interesting, because Brahms, the minute he wrote something for strings, he wanted to play it himself.

ISTOMIN:

Of course. Yes. Sure, sure.

HARRELL:

Here's this Quintet, ²⁸ which we have the manuscript on-- I'm going to perform this year, the first version, which Brahms probably was not aware that he hadn't destroyed, because he was very self-critical. But the first version is a two-cello version for strings only, and I'm absolutely curious to see what this piece is really like.

ISTOMIN:

Oh, yes. Fascinating.

LAREDO:

Where did you find the music to that? I didn't realize it existed.

STEINHARDT:

Yeah.

LAREDO:

I thought it had been destroyed.

HARRELL:

It was published in 1954...

LAREDO:

You're kidding!

HARRELL:

Yeah. And then it went out of print, because no one was interested back then. And there's an Italian quartet that a student of mine has found that performs it, and actually on the Internet, the beginning of the second movement, they have a 30-second snippet.

KALICHSTEIN:

And is the entire thing there, or did somebody sort of finish it for Brahms? Did the...

ROBINSON:

No, it's the original version.

HARRELL:

That was his original...

KALICHSTEIN:

But I mean, did he write the whole thing...

HARRELL:

Yeah.

KALICHSTEIN:

...out?

HARRELL:

In fact, Joachim and Clara Schumann ²⁹ criticized Brahms that they didn't think that the strings was the right format. Maybe something else, so that's why...

KALICHSTEIN:

So that's when he went to the two pianos? And that wasn't good. And he ended up...

HARRELL:

Was the two-piano next, and that's...?

KALICHSTEIN:

Yeah. I think that what we all know and love is the final version. He knew what's good!

C. FRANK:

I might add that Lynn this morning told me about this string version of the quintet, and somebody, I forget, one of you string players, said, "Oh, that second movement must sound beautiful with strings!" [Sings.]

ROBINSON:

Oh! It wasn't I.

SPEAKER:

I didn't say it.

C. FRANK:

Yeah, somebody - one of you said it... speaking of manuscripts, have you seen this beautiful Mozart G Major violin and piano sonata, ³⁰ the one with the second variation movement? Incredible! Let me play a little bit for you. [He walks to the piano.] Not only is there a piano variation alone, but that happens a lot.

ISTOMIN:

But play the beginning. Play the beginning.

C. FRANK:

All right. But - the beginning of the piece?

ISTOMIN:

The beginning of the piece.

C. FRANK:

But that's not what I want to talk about! [Laughter.] All right.

ISTOMIN:

This is what's known as the Mozart Violin Sonata.

C. FRANK:

All right. This is the Violin Sonata. [He plays.]

ISTOMIN:

All right...

C. FRANK:

Not only is there a piano variation to this beautiful theme [he plays the variation], and so forth; then there is a piano solo variation [he plays], and so on. That happens a lot in Mozart. But one of the most beautiful variations...

LAREDO:

With the pizzicato. ³¹

C. FRANK:

The one with the pizzicato.

LAREDO:

Of course. [He plays.]

LAREDO:

Let me see that!

C. FRANK:

[Plays.] Okay. Another thing. This morning when I saw the manuscript-- whenever you've studied the piece, I remember when we studied the piece, and...[sings]...this is marked Andantino cantabile, ³² right? All right, whatever that means. When it comes back after the variations, it's faster. It's called Allegretto. ³³

LAREDO:

Yes.

C. FRANK:

And we very often wondered: Do you think that's really, that's really Mozart, you know? Or is it...

ROBINSON:

It's really in there, huh?

C. FRANK:

...or some editor? Is it really? Not only is it in there, but it says for that end it says: "In tempo but allegretto." In tempo ma allegretto. In other words, he really meant it. And I was also interested in finding that the piano variation, for example, is really smeared. It was really-- Mozart very rarely smeared, but this is sort of smeared. It's very dense...

ROBINSON:

Yeah. Changed a lot?

C. FRANK:

No, not changed, but very compact, you know. It doesn't take much space. In other words...

ROBINSON:

He was running out of paper?

C. FRANK:

He was thinking of himself, playing it himself.

KALICHSTEIN:

That's right. He probably played it differently every night.

ROBINSON:

Yeah.

LAREDO:

I have to tell you a very personal story about this piece. My teacher, Galamian, ³⁴ whom everyone only thought of as this man who taught Paganini Caprices ³⁵ and Dont etudes, ³⁶ his favorite piece in the world for violin was this piece.

C. FRANK:

No kidding.

LAREDO:

The Mozart G major sonata.

C. FRANK:

Did he play piano?

LAREDO:

No. But - and I remember when he taught- he had me play it. And I thought this was really unusual, that he wants me to study this piece, where there's nothing for the violin to play, you know? And, but, because it was his favorite piece in the world. Isn't that weird? Did you know that?

SPEAKER:

No.

LAREDO:

He said, "It's my favorite piece."

ISTOMIN:

In view of the fact that we have so many exceptionally, a large number of manuscripts by Brahms in the area of chamber music as well as the Violin Concerto, ³⁷ we have touched on only one, one, I think, other one. The great Quintet ³⁸ is here. And I wanted to ask if Yossi would like to go over to the piano and just give us an idea of how that piece begins.

KALICHSTEIN:

[walks to piano] Well, it's a beginning that sort of tells, in a nutshell, its history, because he, it, as Lynn has mentioned, it started as a string piece, and then he tried it with two pianos, which exists, and then he settled on that combination of string and piano. But he obviously was thinking of sonority, so he starts it with the second violin and viola not playing, to begin with, and then everybody's playing it in unison. [He plays the first phrase to its end.] At that note, all of a sudden, they separate. The piano plays the chord, and the strings go...[he plays], so all of a sudden, it's like the piano chord has in it the melodic stuff, so...[he plays the theme]. Then, just when it's suggested that maybe their ways may part, he does the completely tremendous explosion, where they really part. The piano plays...[he plays]. Then they join again... I can't play it without the strings going "boom, boom!" It's very hard without the strings playing!

ROBINSON:

So you need us!

KALICHSTEIN:

But - yeah, I need you! The strings play, all of a sudden, they play the orchestra there, and then they join again. So this, this constant, this in this music, where the piano is separated and the piano is part of the family, and part of - it's fascinating, how.

P. FRANK:

First of all, I just-I can't describe how I feel about having these things sit in front of us. It's beyond goosebump factor. I kind of, it's an unprecedented feeling, and I consider myself to be a rather feeling person, but I really don't know how to describe that. It doesn't make me play it any more beautifully, unfortunately, but there's something so...

ISTOMIN:

It might. It might.

P. FRANK:

...inspiring. Yeah, maybe, it might.

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Part 4.  PIANO AND STRINGS

C. FRANK:

Don't you feel, the two of you, pianists, with a trio there's no problem, because it's so individual, anyway, what the three instruments do. But when you play a quintet, or a quartet, for that matter, a piano quartet, that one is a little bit... I'm a little bit lonely.

ISTOMIN:

I feel like a soloist with a quartet.

C. FRANK:

I'm lonely - no, not only like a soloist. I'm a little bit lonely. Because the things I go after are not the same, the things they go after. You know, they want to know about bowings, and about fingerings, and about this and that. And I feel a little bit isolated. A tiny bit...

ROBINSON:

I bet you don't feel lonely, do you?

KALICHSTEIN:

No. I feel I smell like a rose. The four of them are fighting like cats and dogs, and I am alone. There was a, there was a film of Tony Curtis, when he was dressed all in white, and he walks into a huge room with a pie throwing. And pies are going-and he manages to go through the room without a speck!

ISTOMIN:

That's the way you feel!

KALICHSTEIN:

That's the way I feel!

C. FRANK:

I don't completely talk their language, even though, of course, they talk about music too. But you don't ever feel that? Eugene, you don't ever feel that when you play in a quintet?

KALICHSTEIN:

Yes, but you know, it's funny. I'm staring, I'm staring at the first page of the Brahms Piano Quintet, and he's forcing you to be inside each other's psyche.

C. FRANK:

Oh, definitely. No, no, musically speaking...

KALICHSTEIN:

Yeah, but if you use the music...

C. FRANK:

I am talking procedurally speaking.

KALICHSTEIN:

But the music helps you.

ROBINSON:

Claude, would it be different if, say, you were at Aspen, ³⁹ and playing with four people just that somebody had, had assembled?

C. FRANK:

Same thing. Same feeling. Oh, yeah. Oh, same thing. They talk the string language immediately. Immediately.

P. FRANK:

Awww!

KALICHSTEIN:

So you pretend that you speak that language, too.

C. FRANK:

Well, I join in, yes. I try to.

P. FRANK:

We pretend like we talk about piano as if we know something.

SPEAKER:

That's right.

C. FRANK:

No, but you - do you?

P. FRANK:

No.

STEINHARDT:

How difficult is it for you pianists, for God's sake, to talk about bowings? It's an upbow and downbow! [Laughter.]

KALICHSTEIN:

That's right. Only two possibilities.

ROBINSON:

Well, do you...

KALICHSTEIN:

Not to mention the fact that you have this wonderful concept-"as it comes." I wish I could play as it comes! Up and down!

C. FRANK:

The trouble with string players, so often, they mix up bowings with phrasing. They think a certain bowing will make a phrase.

KALICHSTEIN:

Oh! We're getting into serious...

C. FRANK:

And it doesn't.

ROBINSON:

It sometimes helps.

STEINHARDT:

Sometimes it does.

ROBINSON:

Oh, yes!

C. FRANK:

Very rarely.

STEINHARDT:

But Szell ⁴⁰ actually had what he called "punitive bowings" that stopped you from doing something bad. [Laughter.]

STEINHARDT:

And there was something to it, you know?

P. FRANK:

Oh. Defensive bowings.

LAREDO:

George Szell, I must say, he really knew about bowings. Do you know that I, to this day, use bowings, certain bowings, in Beethoven sonatas that I got from him?

KALICHSTEIN:

He wasn't a string player.

LAREDO:

Violin and piano sonatas. That I got from him.

ROBINSON:

He never played, studied violin or viola or...?

KALICHSTEIN:

He must have studied some...

LAREDO:

No, no, he could never play.

ROBINSON:

Just piano.

LAREDO:

But he really, really knew. And he had wonderful ideas, he really did.

KALICHSTEIN:

That's one of the many, many things that make Beethoven unique. Those violin sonatas are violin sonatas. Even...from the beginning.

ISTOMIN:

Yes, yes, yes.

KALICHSTEIN:

They're equal.

C. FRANK:

By the way. They're so equal that he even was partial to making sure that the piano sounded, not only sounded but sounded good. And I don't know if you've noticed, either of you, or anybody's noticed, that in the Beethoven violin sonatas, the slow movements are always - with the exception of one - are always started by the violin and repeated, if at all, by the piano. There is only the Third Sonata, only the one in E-flat... ⁴¹

ISTOMIN:

Only the E-flat...

C. FRANK:

All the others...

P. FRANK:

What about the D major? ⁴²

STEINHARDT:

The D major...

C. FRANK:

Yeah, but that's not really a slow movement. That's...

ISTOMIN:

Well, now wait a minute! [Laughter.]

C. FRANK:

That's a theme and variations. No, a theme and variations is different. No, that's a little like the Mozart.

KALICHSTEIN:

No, but that's an important point.

C. FRANK:

Yeah.

KALICHSTEIN:

But you know, I think he was very much aware of that, that supposedly the piano was percussion...

C. FRANK:

I'm sure he was...

KALICHSTEIN:

...and the strings - because there's a place in the slow movement of Op. 1, No. 2, Trio-- when the C major climax, where he has the strings play two measures of...[sings]...pah pah pah pah pah...sort of very hitting, and then the piano repeats it as legato and as beautifully as possible. It's obviously his way of doing this to standards, you know? "I'm going to do opposite," he said.

ISTOMIN:

He did so opposite that-- he favored the strings so much that he wrote the "Kreutzer" Sonata ⁴³ to show off how wonderful the violin, and by giving it the very opening that nobody can...

KALICHSTEIN:

Nobody can play! Yes.

ISTOMIN:

Well, it's the typical, typical Beethoven!

HARRELL:

There's a wonderful quote from Beethoven. He says to Kreutzer, "Do you think I think of your wretched violin not being inspired?" But the Cello Sonatas in the Op. 5 ⁴⁴ are very much more geared to being piano sonatas, really, even though Duport ⁴⁵ was a great cellist. Op. 69, ⁴⁶ by that time, it's a really a duo...

ISTOMIN:

Which were published as sonatas for piano...

HARRELL:

...with cello obbligato. ⁴⁷

ISTOMIN:

...and cello obbligato.

HARRELL:

That's right.

C. FRANK:

Does the word obbligato feature here?

ISTOMIN:

Cello obbligato.

C. FRANK:

Really? No kidding?

ISTOMIN:

And the B-flat Trio, Op. 97... ⁴⁸

C. FRANK:

Yeah?

ISTOMIN:

...is published as a piano sonata with cello, violin and cello obbligato, if you please.

C. FRANK:

Obbligato!

P. FRANK:

Ha!

LAREDO:

The "Kreutzer" sonata is the same thing. "Sonata for pianoforte..."

P. FRANK:

Oh, yeah.

LAREDO:

"...with violin obbligato." But then he adds, "with violin obbligato," then he adds: "in the form of a double concerto."

C. FRANK:

Aha!

HARRELL:

But why did Beethoven wait four full cello sonatas before writing a really full-length slow movement? You must have thought about that, Claude, because...

ISTOMIN:

Yes.

HARRELL:

...and I have my own view...

C. FRANK:

And what is it?

KALICHSTEIN:

Did he have a good instrumentalist?

HARRELL:

That he sensed the innate mellow, sort of Romantic quality of the cello sonority, and was a revolutionary enough to not want that to happen as a full-fledged movement. He was writing music already by the middle of his life that was going beyond the Romantic era. It was going into contemporary music. So by the time he does write a full-length slow movement for the cello, which is very romantically conceived, he writes, as an antidote to that saccharine, the fugue, which is almost Schoenbergian ⁴⁹ in its diatribe. It's extraordinary. That's my own view.

ISTOMIN:

Aren't the first movements of both the F major and G minor slow movements?

HARRELL:

Yes, but they are, they function as introductions.

ISTOMIN:

Yeah.

KALICHSTEIN:

He gave you the "Triple" Concerto. ⁵⁰

C. FRANK:

Yeah, he gave you the "Triple" Concerto.

ISTOMIN:

Yes. Oh, it's wonderful. We didn't talk about that, and we should have, because that's a maligned- a lot of critics, particularly, disapprove and say, "He failed in his attempt," and: "He tried too hard to get too much," and they know what too much is, and Beethoven didn't know. And this stupendous, giant, gigantesque piece, which, at least for me, at the opening tutti, I get the kind of goosebumps that I feel in the "Emperor" Concerto. ⁵¹ The opening tutti of the "Emperor" Concerto. I get that sense of something enormous, enormously great happening. And not only that, the whole piece, it's a great work that's very difficult to play, and too many people play it that shouldn't play it.

KALICHSTEIN:

Well, very often it's played by three soloists who got together the night before.

ISTOMIN:

Or, or, or section leaders of an orchestra that get together the night before, and...

KALICHSTEIN:

The getting together the night before is not exactly...

HARRELL:

Well, the demands of it are olympian. You're...

ISTOMIN:

Olympian.

HARRELL:

It's not just good to be an athlete, you have to be...

ISTOMIN:

For all the instruments. The cello is the worst served, but as you know, the piano part is not, it's very, very tricky. Well, and the same thing with the violin. Maybe the violin is the least...

KALICHSTEIN:

The first time we had a conversation, you screamed at me, because I had, Eugene, because I had the chutzpah to say that that's not as difficult for the piano. And you grabbed me, it was on the Q, Queen Elizabeth II. You grabbed me by the arm, led me to the piano, and went...[sings]...da da da da da da da...and said: "You mean that's not difficult?" And I had to admit, you're right. [Laughter.]

C. FRANK:

Well, you know my theory is: Everything is exactly equally difficult.

STEINHARDT:

Ah, I quote you all the time. All the time.

C. FRANK:

If it isn't one difficulty, it's another difficulty.

KALICHSTEIN:

Right.

ROBINSON:

I heard your mom say it first.

C. FRANK:

...many, many, many difficulties, as you well know. We've played it together. And we've played it together once.

ROBINSON:

Oh yeah.

HARRELL:

Yeah.

C. FRANK:

I haven't forgotten.

LAREDO:

As a matter of fact, isn't it, the first time that you and I played it...

ROBINSON:

...was with Claude.

LAREDO:

...was with Claude.

C. FRANK:

No kidding? Really?

LAREDO:

Before we had the trio. We had... That's right.

KALICHSTEIN:

You warmed them up?

C. FRANK:

I warmed them up.

KALICHSTEIN:

Thank you.

C. FRANK:

Are they warm?

KALICHSTEIN:

Yes.

ROBINSON:

We're hot!

ISTOMIN:

Well, you...

LAREDO:

And you were a little - I remember this...

P. FRANK:

That was the first time I heard it.

LAREDO:

...you were 13 years old.

P. FRANK:

I fell in love.

C. FRANK:

We three played it together.

P. FRANK:

The three of us. But the first time I heard it was with you three, and became addicted to that piece.

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Part 5.  INTIMACY

P. FRANK:

You know, I have to say that I have made the closest friendships from playing string music: the Mendelssohn Octet, ⁵² the Brahms B-flat Sextet, ⁵³ the Mozart C major Viola Quintet. ⁵⁴ I mean, if music - who was it that said, "Where words end, music begins"? So of course, music is a way of saying things that you can't ordinarily with your mouth. But you take that at least three or four steps further when you play with other people. I've made friends just from having played these particular pieces without ever having had to exchange verbal words, you know, words verbally.

ROBINSON:

You got married that way.

P. FRANK:

I got married that way. I made friends at Marlboro ⁵⁵ just from having sat down and worked on pieces like this, and gone on tour with the Brahms Sextet. Peter Wiley, the cellist in, your cellist in your quartet, he became one of my best friends just from having played that sextet over and over every night. We said things to each other that we would never say over coffee. So I'm indebted to these pieces for enriching my life, both socially and musically.

ISTOMIN:

Oh, that's lovely.

STEINHARDT:

Chamber music is a great singles scene, actually. [Laughter.]

P. FRANK:

A way to pick up people.

STEINHARDT:

You pick up guys and gals...

KALICHSTEIN:

...in bars...

P. FRANK:

...in bars...

P. FRANK:

But it's strangely intimate that way. You actually bring up an interesting point. I mean, there's a false sense of intimacy - or maybe it's not false. Maybe it's...

C. FRANK:

Maybe it's real.

P. FRANK:

...it's actually incredibly real, that is palpable and sometimes strange, because there's been no normal interaction. This is sort of, you know, out of ourselves. And as you say, you get the real core of a person from playing works like that together.

HARRELL:

The intimacy is so palpable that sometimes it's of an embarrassment.

P. FRANK:

Yes, it's embarrassing.

HARRELL:

You play a phrase with someone that you don't really know all that much about, and you don't even want to meet eyes, because the intimacy is so intense.

ISTOMIN:

Yes.

HARRELL:

That's happened to me.

ISTOMIN:

Isn't that the miracle? Isn't that the miracle?

P. FRANK:

That's why we live.

ISTOMIN:

Isn't that the miracle? It's more intimate than anything.

KALICHSTEIN:

But it's also a little bit like the circus act, you know, when you have acrobats whose lives depend on each other by holding their hands? This is the same thing, without the danger.

ROBINSON:

There is danger.

ISTOMIN:

There's a lot of danger.

KALICHSTEIN:

Well, no, no. There's danger in playing music, period. But I'm saying, it's, there's more positive, the circus act has positive intimacy and yet has a lot of...

ISTOMIN:

Oh, yes!

KALICHSTEIN:

...of negatives. You know, you slip and the other one is dead. Here, you slip and it's your problem. [Laughter.]

KALICHSTEIN:

More than the other one's. So there's less...

ROBINSON:

I think you've saved me a couple of times.

KALICHSTEIN:

But I think it enhances the joy of music, that when you are alone, the sense of danger is more.

ISTOMIN:

That sometimes is a, that sometimes is a false comfort, because some people feel that, "Well," - I'm speaking about it now from the standpoint of a pianist-- "oh, I can't make it as, in my career as a great soloist, so I'm going to be, play chamber music." Well, they may very well play chamber music, but they don't play chamber music any better than they play the other kind of music.

KALICHSTEIN:

Miracles don't happen!

HARRELL:

Actually, the requirement of a good chamber musician is greater than a soloist, I think.

ISTOMIN:

It's more treacherous in that you have to also react to something else, but that ought to be ecstasy. It ought to be a great pleasure. My idea of hell is playing a Mozart Piano Concerto with woodwinds in the background trailing behind me all the time. [Laughter.]

ROBINSON:

That can happen in chamber music, too.

ISTOMIN:

We all know, we all know, well...

KALICHSTEIN:

But then you can say something.

ISTOMIN:

You can quickly do that. That's quickly rectified.

P. FRANK:

No, but there are extra-musical skills that are involved in playing chamber music. I mean, psychology, for instance, is an incredibly important factor in being with other people, but especially playing with other people. If the idea is to bring out the best in whoever sits next to you or across from you, you have to start unlocking that person from the minute you sit down. What's going to bring out the best in you is not necessarily the same as what's going to, you know, bring out your strengths. And so that's what I find the most interesting and rewarding part of it...

ISTOMIN:

Interesting. Yeah.

P. FRANK:

...is that it's the total person.

HARRELL:

I've given a very entertaining master class about working together and what that means, about what you're saying. And I often will then interject, "You said," and then I'll repeat what they said in a very dulcet tone of voice. "What did you really mean?" And they usually don't say anything, because they're young people embarrassed. But I say, "Did you mean: IT'S MUCH TOO FAST!" [Laughter.]

HARRELL:

And that's always exactly right. They feel like this inside, and yet to bring the best out is part of the negotiation. Each person in a chamber music group has to become a great CEO, a great manager, knowing how to get the best out of other people.

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Part 6.  IDEAS

STEINHARDT:

And at all times, you're getting free music lessons, when you play chamber music. For free.

ROBINSON:

Oh, yes.

KALICHSTEIN:

Yes, yes.

STEINHARDT:

You don't have to pay for it. Somebody tells you, you know, "I don't like your phrasing here." "Why did you do that?" And: "You're playing out of tune over here." And: "It's kind of a small dynamic range here; can't you stretch it?" I mean, they're giving you all this stuff for free.

P. FRANK:

Oh, yeah.

STEINHARDT:

It's wonderful.

ROBINSON:

Whether you want it or not!

KALICHSTEIN:

Tell them the John Dalley ⁵⁶ in the middle of the concert, what he said to you. I love that story.

STEINHARDT:

Oh, that was a wonderful story. We had to play at the Metropolitan Museum, and we had our last rehearsal before the concert, and John said to me, "It's okay, the way you're doing this phrase, but why don't you try a different fingering? It'll make it more exciting." And I said, "Well, John, I don't know. It's, that's a - I understand your point, but it's a difficult fingering, and I don't know if I can do it successfully." So we got to the concert, and it was sold out, and there were stage seats all around us, on the stage. And we got to that passage. I saw it coming up a few bars before, and I thought, I forgot all about what John said. I didn't practice it. I didn't try it out, even. And we got to it, and I thought, Oh, the hell with it. I'll try it. I'll take a chance. And I did it. And I hit the note properly. And John said, "Good!"

ISTOMIN:

Yeah! [Laughter.]

ISTOMIN:

Right there in the concert!

STEINHARDT:

He was...right there for all to hear, he turned to me, and said: "Good!" I love that.

ISTOMIN:

Good for John!

STEINHARDT:

I love that!

ISTOMIN:

I've heard all sort of different things on the stage at concerts.

ROBINSON:

"Not good"? [Laughter.]

ISTOMIN:

In fact, I've said so many different things in concerts!

ROBINSON:

Well, one of the magical things, I think, about having an ongoing group, or maybe not ongoing, is really finding the right chemistry, that you found two, three, four other people that, that can work together without somebody getting their feelings hurt, or somebody going off in a tiff, or - it's magical when it happens, it really is.

STEINHARDT:

That's one of the great learning things about music, that it's not about your feelings when you criticize, my feelings when you criticize what I'm doing. It's about, if you're talking about business, it's about the product, you know. But it's about what we're doing. We want to play this Mozart C major Two-Viola Quintet ⁵⁷ beautifully, and so you're giving me advice about it, I'm giving you advice about it, and it's hard for a lot of people to accept that at the beginning. So I think it's a great learning experience.

LAREDO:

What's also sometimes very difficult, and it's very challenging, is to have to play a phrase really beautifully when you're not really convinced that that's how the phrase should go.

C. FRANK:

Mmmm. Yes.

LAREDO:

When the others, however, it's been voted that that's the way to do it. And then to do it, you know, convincingly and really beautifully when you think to yourself, this is not how it should be, that's very hard.

P. FRANK:

I like chamber music. It's a party without alcohol. And I don't drink, so... [Laughter.]

STEINHARDT:

Remember our quintet, our famous quintet, ⁵⁸ with Maggie and the Mendelssohn Two-Viola Quintet? ⁵⁹

LAREDO:

You mean the one where we had 48 rehearsals?

STEINHARDT:

Forty-eight rehearsals. And it kept on getting worse and worse and worse. And Karen Tuttle called an evening rehearsal. She said, "We are going to learn it tonight." We arrived, and she arrived with a bottle of whiskey. She put it in the middle. Remember that?

LAREDO:

Well, it might be a slight exaggeration.

STEINHARDT:

Slight.

ROBINSON:

That's the piece that we got together.

LAREDO:

That's right.

ROBINSON:

It's our piece.

STEINHARDT:

Was it really?

P. FRANK:

See, marriages have been made by, from playing chamber music.

KALICHSTEIN:

It was the 37th rehearsal.

LAREDO:

Sharon ⁶⁰ and I really got together because of that piece. So when we got married, the Guarneri ⁶¹ and Walter Trampler ⁶² played the first movement at our wedding.

STEINHARDT:

But I was very nervous about playing, because for the longest time, my playing at a wedding was the kiss of death for the couple. I had a, there is some kind of curse...

KALICHSTEIN:

Now he dares to say it...

STEINHARDT:

They all ended in divorce for a long time.

KALICHSTEIN:

It's how you played. Finally you played well. Thank God!

STEINHARDT:

So I practiced for this wedding, finally. [Laughter.]

ISTOMIN:

I cannot believe that many years down the road, and in a few years, many years, there will be quite, there won't be quite a bit of much interest to many people from what we've spoken about at this session. So I'm deeply grateful, and very proud, that you have done me the honor to join me in this event.

KALICHSTEIN:

And we love...

SPEAKER:

Yeah.

C. FRANK:

Thank you.

STEINHARDT:

And thank you for the chance.

ISTOMIN:

Thank you very, very much.

---

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FOOTNOTES:

1 Johannes Brahms, Sextet for Two Violins, Two Violas and Two Violoncellos in B-flat Major, Op. 18.Back to transcript

2 Pablo Casals (1876-1973). Catalan cellist, conductor, pianist and composer. Back to transcript

3 Alexander Schneider (1908-1993). Lithuanian-born American violinist, conductor and teacher. Back to transcript

4 Leslie Parnas (1932-). American cellist and teacher. Back to transcript

5 Michael Tree (1934-). Violist.Back to transcript

6 Milton Thomas (1920-). Violist. Back to transcript

7 Ludwig van Beethoven, Sonata for Violoncello and Piano in A Major, op. 69. Back to transcript

8 Leonard Rose (1918-1984). American cellist, teacher. Back to transcript

9 Henryk Szeryng (1918-1988). Polish-born Mexican violinist. Back to transcript

10 Johannes Brahms, Sonata for Violin and Piano in G major, op. 79. Back to transcript

11 Isaac Stern (1920-2001). Ukranian-born American violinist. Back to transcript

12 Beethoven Concerto for Piano, Violin, Violoncello and Orchestra in C Major, op. 56. Back to transcript

13 Joseph Joachim (1831-1907 Composer). Conductor and violinist. Back to transcript

14 Flonzaley String Quartet was founded in 1901 in New York City. Named after Swiss Residence of its patron E. J. Coppett. Back to transcript

15 Léner Quartet, founded by students of the Hungarian Royal Academy of Music. The first quartet to record extensively. Back to transcript

16 Busch String Quartet, founded in Austria, emigrated to U.S.A. in 1940. Back to transcript

17 Kikuei Ikeda. Violinist and founding member of the Tokyo String Quartet. Back to transcript

18 Kanzuhide Isomura. Violist and founding member of Tokyo String Quartet. Back to transcript

19 Budapest Quartet, formed originally of string players from the Royal Hungarian Opera House in 1917, by 1937 the members were all Russian or Lithuanian. They were the quartet-in-residence at The Library of Congress 1938-1961. Back to transcript

20 Joseph Haydn, String Quartet in E-flat Major, op. 64, no. 6. Back to transcript

21 Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Quintet for Two Violins, Two Violas and Violoncello in C Major, K.515. Back to transcript

22 Béla Bartók, String Quartet no. 5, op. 110. Back to transcript

23 Arnold Schoenberg, String Quartet no. 2 in F-sharp Minor, Opus 10. Back to transcript

24 Johannes Brahms, Sextet for Two Violins, Two Violas and Two Violoncellos in B-flat major, op. 18. Back to transcript

25 Felix Mendelssohn-Bartholdy, Octet for Four Violins, Two Violas and Two Violoncellos in E-flat Major, op. 20. Back to transcript

26 Ludwig van Beethoven, Concerto for Piano and Orchestra no. 4 in G major, op. 58. Back to transcript

27 Rudolf Serkin (1903-1991) Austrian-born American pianist and pedagogue. Back to transcript

28 Johannes Brahms, Quintet for Piano and Strings in F Minor, op. 34. Back to transcript

29 Clara Wieck Schumann (1819-1896). German pianist, composer, teacher. Back to transcript

30 Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Sonata for Violin and Piano in G Major, K.373a (379). Back to transcript

31 Musical term to indicate strings should be plucked rather than bowed. Back to transcript

32 A tempo designation for 'a little slower" than Andante (moderately slow) and "in a singing style ." Back to transcript

33 Term that indicates slightly less faster tempo than Allegro (fast), often implying lighter texture or character as well. Back to transcript

34 Ivan Galamian (1903-1981). Armenian-born American violinist and pedagogue. Back to transcript

35 Nicolo Paganini, 24 Caprices for Solo Violin, op. 1. Back to transcript

36 Jacob Dont, 24 Etudes for solo violin. Back to transcript

37 Johannes Brahms, Concerto for Violin and Orchestra in D Major, op. 77. Back to transcript

38 Johannes Brahms, Quintet for Piano and Strings in F Minor, op. 34. Back to transcript

39 Aspen Music Festival and School, held annually in Aspen, Colorado since 1949. Back to transcript

40 George Szell (1897-1970). Hungarian-born American conductor. Back to transcript

41 Ludwig van Beethoven, Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 3 in E-flat Major, op. 12. Back to transcript

42 Ludwig van Beethoven, Sonata for Violin and Piano No. 1 in D Major, op. 12. Back to transcript

43 Ludwig van Beethoven, Sonata for Violin and Piano in A Minor, op. 47. Back to transcript

44 Ludwig van Beethoven, Sonata for Violoncello and Piano in F Major; Sonata for Violoncello and Piano in G Minor, op. 5. Back to transcript

45 Jean-Pierre Duport (1741-1818). Cellist and composer. Back to transcript

46 Ludwig van Beethoven, Sonata for Violoncello and Piano in A Major, op. 69. Back to transcript

47 A necessary (or obligatory) secondary instrumental part. Back to transcript

48 Ludwig van Beethoven, Trio for Violin, Violoncello and Piano in B-flat Major, op. 97. Back to transcript

49 Arnold Schoenberg (1874-1951). Austrian-born American composer. Back to transcript

50 Ludwig van Beethoven, Concerto for Piano, Violin, Violoncello, and Orchestra, op. 56. Back to transcript

51 Ludwig van Beethoven, Concerto for Piano and Orchestra No. 5 in E-flat Major, op. 73. Back to transcript

52 Felix Mendelssohn-Bartholdy, Octet for Four Violins, Two Violas and Two Violoncellos in E-flat Major, op. 20. Back to transcript

53 Johannes Brahms, Sextet for Two Violins, Two Violas and Two Violoncellos in B-flat Major, op. 18. Back to transcript

54 Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Quintet for Two Violins, Two Violas and Violoncello in C Major, K.515. Back to transcript

55 Marlboro Music Festival, Vermont, Founded in 1951 by Rudolf Serkin, Adolf and Merman Busch and Marcel and Louise Moyse. Back to transcript

56 John Dalley, violinist in the Guarneri String Quartet Back to transcript

57 Mozart Quintet for Two Violins, Two Violas and Violoncello, in C major, K.515. Back to transcript

58 He is talking about 'his' quartet, the Guarneri, playing the Mendelssohn, which requires an additional viola player. Back to transcript

59 Presumably he is still speaking about the Mendelssohn Quintet for Violin, two Violas and Violoncello in A major, Opus 18. It could also be the Quintet for Violin, two Violas and Violoncello, in B flat major Opus 87, but doubtful because this work is not as popular. Back to transcript

60 Sharon Robinson, cellist and wife of Jaime Laredo; with Joseph Kalichstein the three are the Kalichstein-Laredo-Robinson Trio. Back to transcript

61 Guarneri String Quartet, formed in 1964 during the Marlboro Festival, Vermont. Back to transcript

62 Walter Trampler (1915-1997). Outstanding American viola player and pedagogue. Back to transcript

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