Illinois vs. August Spies et al. trial transcript. Volume K [Witnesses for the State, July 26-31, 1886] : a machine-readable transcription.

Index to witnesses: Volume K, 1886 July 26-31. 1 Cover

26th Monday 27th Tuesday 28th Wednesday 29th Thursday

July 26th, 27th, 28th, 29th, 30th and part of 31st. Friday " " " Saturday

2 ii

Index to Witnesses etc. / Direct Cross / R. D. / R. C.

July 26. Johnson (or Jansen) And. C. Pinkerton Wm. A. Freeman Wm. H. Gruenhut Joseph Newman Dr. F. H. Dickson Maxwell E. Hull Paul C. "Alarm" Articles

July 27. Allen Whiting Tuttle Chas. R. Cosgrove Off. Edw. McKeough Off. Tim. re-called. Owen Edgar E. Metzner W. C. Heinemann Henry E. O. re-called. Haas Off. Louis English G. P. Thompson Malvern M.

July 28. Heun Aug. Marks Off. M. H. Hume Hugh Gilmer Harry L.

July 29. Quinn Off. Martin Bonfield Jno. Insp. recalled Mahlendorf Louis Schuttler Off. Herman Lowenstein " Jacob. Casagrande Joseph B. Soller off. Jno. K. Murphy Dr. Jno. B. Epler Dr. E. G. Thompson M. M. recalled. Schwartz Wm. Lowenstein Off. " Hoffman " Bowler Lt. Jas. Schaack Capt. Michael

3 iii

Index - Continued / Direct Cross / R. D. / R. C.

July 29th cont'd Baxter Dr. A. J. Gauss E. F. L. recalled "Anarchist The" Seeger Eugene recalled "Alarm" Articles Drews Fredk. Whalen Off. recalled Lee Dr. E. W. Henroten Dr. Ferd. "Alarm" Articles

July 30th Coughlin Off. Danl. Prouty Chas. B. Reynolds Wm. J. McNamara Off. Thomas Haines Prof. Walter S. Delafontaine Prof. Mark Whalen Off. recalled. Weinecke Off. " Seeger Eugene " "Arbeiter Zeitung" Articles Furthmann Edmund Bluthardt Dr. Theo. J. Stift Off. Jno.

July 31 Degan " " Burns " Michael Seeger Eugene recalled "Arbeiter Zeitung" Articles Gauss E. F. L. recalled. Bonfield off. Jas.

Testimony of Andrew C. Johnson (first appearance resumed), 1886 July 26. 4 1

VOL. K.--July 26th, 27th, 28th, 29th, 30th and part 31st.

July 26th, 1886, 10 o'clock A. M.

Court met pursuant to adjournment.

ANDREW C. JOHNSON. Cross Examination resumed by Mr. Foster.

Q We were about to talk about the procession on the 30th of May, Decoration Day.

A No, that was not Decoration Day--yes, the 30th of May.

Q Yes sir, the 30th of May, I understand you to say that you heard a conversation between Mr. Spies and another gentleman on the corner?

A Not a conversation. I heard remarks.

Q A remark?

A Yes sir.

Q Was that remark carried on in a whisper?

A No sir. Not in a whisper. It was said low.

Q Who was the gentleman that Mr. Spies was talking with at that time?

A I don't know.

Q Didn't you look at him to ascertain who it was?

A I looked at him, but I didn't know him.

Q What kind of looking man was he?

A He was an oldish man.

Q Is that all the description you can give of him?

A Gray hair, gray mustache, and was wearing spectacles.

Q Did you hear any remarks from him or simply from Mr. Spies.

A I heard no remarks from that gentleman.

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Q In this conversation you say Mr. Spies said a couple of bombs would scatter the whole of them?

A He said a half a dozen bombs.

Q You were listening to hear what he had to say?

A I was standing close behind Spies at the time.

Q For that purpose?

A Perhaps so.

Q Now, I would like to have you give me the name if you can of somebody else, that heard Mr. Spies say anything besides yourself?

A I don't know as I can.

Q You were then acting as detective?

A I was.

Q In the employ of Mr. Pinkerton?

A Yes sir.

Q And reporting to Mr. Gage?

A No sir, I reported to Mr. Pinkerton, my superintendent.

Q Do you know why it is your reports are signed by Mr. Gage, vice-president of the First National Bank, or Cashier?

A I don't know.

Q Vice-President of the First National Bank?

A I say I don't know.

Q Let me have one of those reports? Where did you get these reports from before you came to testify in this case?

A I received them from the chief clerk at the Agency.

Q At Mr. Pinkerton's Agency?

A Yes sir.

Q Look at them, will you, and see whether they are countersigned by L. J. Gage? (Witness examines report).

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A That name is here.

Q That is on all of them, is it not?

A I don't know.

Q Haven't you looked at them?

A I have not looked at the back of them.

Q Look at the back of them, and see if they are all endorsed in the same way.

MR. GRINNELL: Does he undertake to say they are endorsed by Gage or that Gage's name appears on the back of them?

MR. FOSTER: So far as this witness is concerned, he says Mr. Gage's name appears on the back of them. I presume he does not know whether they are endorsed by Gage.

THE WITNESS: The name of Gage appears on the back of these.

Q L. J. Gage appears on the back of each report.

A Of these that you handed me.

Q Do you know who Mr. H. or M. Cavanaugh is?

A No sir.

Q Do you know M. D. Cavanaugh?

A No sir.

Q Do you know who Mr. H. G. Evans is?

A No sir.

Q You don't know anybody else in the world, do you, that heard this remark of Mr. Spies except yourself?

A I do not.

Q That you say was during the passing by of that part of the procession which was composed of the police?

A Yes sir.

Q Did Mr. Spies say in that connection anything about the arrangement to throw a couple of bombs, or five bombs?

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A Not that I heard.

Q He did not say that he intended to have the police scattered by the throwing of bombs, any number of bombs?

A Not in my hearing.

Q He made simply the statement or remark that you have made?

A Yes sir.

Q To which you heard no response from any body?

A He made other remarks aferwards.

Q But then, at that time, when the police were passing, was there any other remark that he made that you heard?

A Not while the police were passing.

Q What led up to this remark--what had he said just before that?

A He had been in conversation for some time. I can't recollect what he said before. He said a great many things.

Q So then, of all he said, that is the only thing that you can remember that is at that time?

A At that time.

Q The only thing you can remember is, that a couple of bombs would scatter them?

A I said a half a dozen bombs.

Q I misunderstood you if you said half a dozen bombs. I have it down a couple. At that time the police were passing, you say?

A Yes sir.

Q You don't know what he referred to any more than you would imply from his language?

A I should simply imply from his language he was referring to the police.

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Q And directly the National Guards came along?

A Following the police.

Q Following the police, immediately after his remark in regard to the National Guards, that they were boys?

A That they were all boys.

Q And fifty determined men would diarm the whole of them?

A He said something more than that.

Q He said that didn't he?

A He said that, yes.

Q He said they were all boys, and that fifty determined men would disarm the whole of them?

A No sir, that was not the way the remark was made.

Q Tell us how the remark was made?

A He said, they are all boys, and they will not be much good in the case of a riot, fifty determined men would scatter them all.

Q Didn't he say disarm them all?

A Disarm them all.

Q Which did he say?

A Disarm.

Q He didn't say scatter?

A No sir, disarm.

Q He gave that as his opinion, as you understood?

A So I understood.

Q He spoke of it as any one would in regard to the boys, gave it as his opinion that fifty men would diarm them all.

A That is what he said.

Q Did he say there was any arrangement by which they were to be diarmed?

A Not in my hearing.

Q He said nothing that in case of a riot, that it was

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arranged that they were to be disarmed, or anything of that kind?

A Not that I heard.

Q Simply gave his opinion upon what he called a lot of boys, and that is all there was to it so far as the militia was concerned, was it?

A As far as I heard, yes sir.

Q Did he appear to be talking in a whisper, or simply to this man?

A He talked low, not in a whisper.

Q In just ordinary conversation--he did not bellow it out in the street, but simply talked so this man could hear him?

A The man was standing close to him.

Q You were eaves dropping there for the purpose of hearing what he said?

A I was standing behind him.

Q For the purpose of hearing what he said?

A Perhaps so.

Q No perhaps about it--was that your object.

A I said perhaps so.

THE COURT: Do you know whether you had a motive?

A I had a motive.

MR. FOSTER: Q. And that was to hear what Spies said-- state whether any body on earth that you know of that heard Mr. Spies say that besides you?

THE COURT: How many times do you want that.

MR. FOSTER: Q. I will ask you about that he said further on. What do you say about that--did anybody else hear this remark of Mr. Spies?

A Somebody else heard it undoubtedly.

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Q Did anybody hear it that you know of?

A No, not that I know.

Q On May 31st, which appears to be the next meeting you refer to, Fielden made a speech, in which he said that it was only by force that the government could be overthrown?

A By strength or force---that was the words made use of.

Q By strength or force that the government, or was it the government or a government, could be overthrown?

A That government, as near as I can recollect the words he used were those, "It is only by strength or force that the government can be overthrown, or that we can overthrow the government."

Q Which was it?

A I won't be positive as to which it was, but it was to that purport.

Q He did not say that he proposed that the government should be overthrown, did he?

A He did not say that he proposed it should.

Q He stated there as an historical fact that it was only by force that government could be overthrown, or the government overthrown, or words to that import?

A Words to that import.

Q You had heard him say that before?

A I have several times.

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Q And since have you heard him say that substantially?

A Perhaps I might.

Q That is all that you remember now, that night on the 31st of May meeting, is it not?

A Without looking at my report it is all that I remember.

Q That brings us then to the 7th day of June at Ogden's Grove--you remember that occasion, I suppose?

A Yes sir.

Q At that time, Mr. Fielden spoke with reference that there was no use of begging of our masters. Now, with reference to the 7th of June meeting, did he say anything in that conversation about any time or any arrangement that any force was to be used, that you now remember of?

A He did refer to force.

Q Did he refer to any time, I said?

A No.

Q Did he say anything about how the force was to be applied, by what particular acts?

A No he did not say by what particular acts.

Q You never heard him say and designate a time at which force was to be applied, did you?

A Fielden?

Q Yes?

A Oh, yes.

Q You have?

A Yes sir.

Q What was the time?

A I can't recollect the date, but the place was at 12th Street Turner Hall, or rather at the landing outside of the hall.

Q That is not what I mean, that is the time when he said,

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spoke about force---but my question is, did he ever designate the time at which the force was to be used?

A Yes, and I told you when and where.

Q You don't understand me. At the Turner Hall he said that force would have to be used, but did he tell the day on which it was to be used?

A I said, yes sir.

Q When?

A The first of May, this year.

Q Did you make a memorandum of that?

A I did.

Q Where, at what meeting?

A You will find it in one of my reports.

Q Whereabouts?

A I say I cannot recollect the date, but it was at the termination of a meeting at the West 12th Street Turner Hall.

Q I wish you would just find that, take your notes and find that. I want to see it?

A I don't recollect which report it was in.

Q I don't care which it was in?

A At West 12th Street Turner Hall.

Q What was the date?

A I can't give the date.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. Which conversation?

A With Fielden.

THE COURT: The question is at to Fielden fixing a time at which force was to be used, and the witness says he fixed the time on the first of May, and that he did it at some meeting at Turner Hall. Mr. Foster wants him to take his notes and find a memorandum of that.

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MR. GRINNELL: The meeting at 12th street Turner Hall was 11th or 12th of October last.

MR. FOSTER: I will pass on and see if we can't find it. He said force was to be used on the 1st day of May?

A No he did not say that.

Q I want to know the date at which he said force was to be used?

A I can't give you the date, because I don't recollect the date. I have talked to him so often and so frequently that it would be impossible for me to give the date.

Q This was in a speech?

A No sir.

Q You don't mean to say it was a private conversation between you as a detective and him as a member of the armed section?

A Certainly not.

MR. GRINNELL: It don't appear he was talking to a detective.

MR. FOSTER: It appears so now. We will get along with the detective. It was not in a speech, you say, that he used this language?

A I said no.

Q Who else was present and heard it but you?

A Others.

Q Who?

A Two or three members of the same association that I myself belonged to.

Q Let us have their names?

A I can give you the name of one.

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Q Who is he?

A Boyd.

Q Is he one of the men that you have since learned was one of the Pinkerton detectives?

A No sir.

Q What is, Mr. Boyd's first name?

A That I am not certain about, but I think it is James.

Q Where does he live?

A I don't know.

Q He heard this?

A He was there.

Q Did he hear it?

A I presume that he did.

Q You don't know whether he did or not?

A I presume he did.

Q Was the statement made to him or you?

A It was made to all that were there.

Q Made to all of you there?

A It was on a general conversation.

Q How was the force to be applied, to what building did he say?

A There was no building in particular mentioned.

Q At what point in the city was the force to be applied?

A There was no point in the city mentioned.

Q Then there was no designated place where the force was to be applied?

A No.

Q Do you know two men by the name of Boyd, one an old gentleman and the other a young man?

A I do.

Q Which was it, the young or the old man?

A It was the old man.

Q You say this was at the Northwest Turner Hall?

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A Yes.

Q The 12th Street Turner Hall?

A Yes sir.

Q How many meetings did you have there?

A Quite a number of meetings. I can't recollect how many.

Q Can't you fix about the date at which Mr. Fielden had this conversation?

A No sir, I can't fix the date.

Q You know it was at Turner Hall on 12th Street?

A It was not in the hall. It was at the landing as near as I can recollect.

Q What landing?

A As you enter the hall.

Q Down stairs?

A Down stairs as you enter the hall.

Q Then you go up stairs into the hall?

A Yes sir.

Q Was it before that meeting or after that meeting?

A It was after the meeting.

Q August 19th you say Parsons spoke, and there was something said there about the car driver's strike, in which he made some statement to you that if there had been one shot fired and Bonfield had been killed, then certain results would have followed?

A Yes.

Q You remember that conversation?

A Yes, sir.

Q Was that a speech or a private conversation with you?

A That was a speech.

Q Mr. Parsons simply was giving his opinion, was he not, of what in his judgment would have occurred, provided things had happened differently from what they did happen?

A I

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don't know what was his opinion. I only know what he said.

Q He said that was his opinion didn't he?

A No, he did not say anything about opinion at all.

Q Didn't he say that at that riot if there had been one shot fired, and Bonfield had been killed, that then, and go on to state what in his opinion would have been the result?

A If Bonfield had been shot he said,---

Q Yes, then such and such would have been the result?

A Yes sir.

Q Did he say he intended to shoot Bonfield in the future?

A No, he did not say so.

Q Then he was simply referring to what in his judgment would have occurred if Bonfield had been shot on that occasion?

A I don't know what his judgment was.

Q You know what he said it was.

A I know what he said.

Q That is all that he said---he did not plot any treason against the life of Bonfield, did he?

A Not that I know of.

Q Neither then or at any other time?

A Not as far as I know.

Q Now you say that you never met with the armed sections of the American group of the Lehr and Wehr Verein, but twice?

A That is all.

Q And were they members of the Lehr and Wehr Verein, or were they the International Rifles?

A They were the International Rifles.

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Q How many rifles were there in the room?

A There were ten rifles in the room.

Q That belonged to the other company when they came in?

A Yes sir.

Q How many did the American section of the American Group how many rifles did they have at any time when they were drilling?

A I did not see any.

Q Did they have any?

A Not that I saw.

Q You met there and you were a member, were not you?

A I was.

Q And drilled with them twice didn't you

A Yes.

Q Did you have any guns to drill with?

A I said I did not see any.

Q You were there and drilled, did they have any guns?

A I say I did not see any.

Q Did you drill with guns?

A No.

Q That answers it---you did not drill with guns, and you drilled twice?

A Yes sir.

Q And you drilled simply with the arms that nature had given you, your hands, and you marched?

A We drilled with our feet, not with our arms.

Q Didn't you drill with your arms down to your sides?

A Certainly, and our feet in motion.

Q You drilled with your feet then?

A Yes sir.

Q Not with your arms?

A No sir.

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Q Were you armed when you drilled?

A No sir.

Q And you met there twice?

A Yes sir.

Q And that was the extent of the drilling so far as you know of the American International Rifles formed from the American Group?

A Yes sir.

Q Did they ever meet and drill when you were not there to your knowledge?

A I don't know.

Q Did you ever hear of a meeting for the purpose of drilling and not attend it, as long as you were a member?

A I have heard of other meetings for drilling purposes that I did not attend.

Q Of this section?

A Yes sir.

Q How many?

A Several.

Q You heard of meetings being called to drill?

A I heard of meetings being callled for drilled purposes.

Q And you did not go?

A No sir.

Q Why?

A Because I was otherwise engaged.

Q Where?

A At times in the city, and at other times in the country.

Q How many times did they meet to your knowledge, or did you hear that there was a meeting for the purpose of drill?

A I cannot say as to the number of times.

Q Now, as a member of that organization, and as a person who was sent there to listen to what was said, to see what was done, and report, I will ask you whether that branch, the

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American branch of the armed section were ever armed when they met for drill?

A I could not answer that because I don't know.

Q Were they as a company armed with rifles to your knowledge?

A I don't know.

Q Did you ever see them have any in their possession when they met for drilling?

A No.

Q Do you know how many meetings were ever called for the purpose in this association, for any and all purposes.

A How many meetings?

Q Yes sir.

A No sir, I cannot say.

Q Will you say there were ever more than three?

A Do you refer to the armed section?

A I refer to the armed section of the American Group?

A No sir, I would not take it upon myself to say how many meetings there were.

Q You would not say there were ever more than three meetings for any purpose?

A I won't mention any number at all, because I could not.

Q You will not say there was more than three then, there ever was more than three?

A I can't say.

Q Now, at the time these ten men came in there, and were drilled, as illustrating the movements of men that were drilled, were any of these defendants among these ten?

A Yes sir

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Q Among the ten that drilled?

A no, not among the ten that drilled.

Q That is what I say, of the ten that were brought in and drilled, were any of the defendants of the ten?

A They could not be amongst them.

Q I did not ask you whether they could not have been---I asked you whether they were?

A They were present in the room.

Q That is, you mean that Parsons was there and Fielden was there?

A Yes sir.

Q Now then, seeing what you mean by that, answer the question and tell me whether any of these defendants comprised any part of the ten that came in there with the rifles and drilled in your presence?

A I said no.

Q That is an answer.

MR. GRINNELL: He said it before.

MR. FOSTER: No, he did not.

Q At the time you joined the International Rifles, and you had a drill by a drilling master, how many men did you drill?

A How many men did he drill?

Q That drilled with you?

A Do you mean on the first occasion or second?

Q Yes, I mean on the first occasion?

A On the first occasion, as near as I can recollect there was either nineteen or twenty.

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Q How many was there on the second?

A There was two or three.

Q Never as many as twenty-five?

A No.

Q The drill master that came in there, the first man, did you say was a German----he was not there the second time, was he?

A No sir.

Q When was the last meeting of the armed section that you ever knew anything about, of the American Group?

A The last meeting that I attended I think was in August.

Q Of last year?

A Yes sir.

Q Now, don't you know as a matter of fact from inquiry of the defendants and of others in their presence, that this meeting for the purpose of drill was stopped last summer, and that during the winter season they never met for any such purpose as that?

A No sir, I don't know anything about that at all.

Q Do you know of their meeting after the month of August last year?

A Yes sir.

Q For the purpose of drill?

A For the purpose of drill.

Q How late?

A Perhaps a month or two afterwards.

Q After that have you ever heard of their meeting for the purpose of drill?

A No, not after that, but I have heard of it.

Q So then that would bring it until what time in the year would you say was the last you heard of their meeting for

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the purpose of drill?

A I think it was some time in October.

Q Now, you continued during the months of October, November and December, and most of January to continue your business as a detective to ascertain what they were doing?

A No sir, not continuously?

Q Well, you continued to act in this capacity?

A Occasionally.

Q Now, did you ever know or hear of their drilling after the month of October, or meeting for the purpose of drill?

A I have heard of it.

Q Of the American branch?

A Yes sir.

Q Meeting after October?

A I have heard it asserted.

Q By any of the defendants?

A No.

Q Or by any of the members?

A By none of the defendants, but by members of the armed section.

Q That they met after October?

A It was after October that I heard it.

Q Yes, it was after October you heard it, but what I mean, and you must know I mean is----do you pretend to say that you ascertained that they met or drilled, or met for the purpose of drilling, after the month of October, last year?

A Yes sir.

Q How late, up to what time?

A Well, I can't fix any certain time, but it was some time during last winter.

Q How did you learn that?

A It was later than October.

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Q Who told you, that is the question---how did you learn it?

A I learned it through a member of the armed section.

Q Can't you tell us who told you?

A Yes, spoke to several of them one of them was Boyd, young Boyd.

Q Who else?

A There were several others spoke to me about it? I don't now recollect who they were.

Q You can only remember young Boyd told you?

A Yes sir.

Q When was it and where, he told you that?

A It was at a meeting at 12th Street Turner Hall. I think it was some time in December, but I would not be sure about it.

Q Do your notes show that?

A I don't know whether they do or not.

Q When was the meeting?

A I think it was in December but I won't be positive.

Q That the meeting was?

A That the meeting was, when I heard it.

Q Where was the meeting held that was held for the purpose of drill?

A On the previous week I understood, at 12th street Turner Hall.

Q Did you hear before that, before that meeting, that there was to be one?

A No sir.

Q You belonged to that society, didn't you, at that time?

A I did.

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Q You were in the city at that time were you not?

Q Which time do you speak of?

Q Both times, both when they were to meet for drill, and the time when you heard it?

A No sir.

Q You say you were not in the city?

A I have already told you I was frequently away from the city.

Q I asked you whether you were in the city at the time you heard they were to meet for drill?

A I said no, it was after the drill had been---I explained it to you.

Q Why don't you answer my question. I understand you heard about it after the drill was said to have taken place?

A Yes sir.

Q Where were you at the time the drill was said to have taken place?

A Probably out of the city.

Q Probably -do you know whether you were in the city or not?

A I can't positively say.

Q You cannot tell?

A No sir.

Q You were never notified after the month of August of any meeting for drill, were you, as a member?

A I was not notified, no sir.

Q It stopped right there in August?

A (No response).

Q What is your name?

A Andrew C. Johnson.

Q That is the name that was written on your card, was it?

A Yes sir.

Q You joined the association by your right name?

A Certainly.

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Q You gave your right address?

A No address was asked.

Q Was not their addresses taken down in the book?

A No sir.

Q At the time you went there and joined you gave your own name, and never was asked in regard to your whereabouts, or where you lived?

A I was frequently asked about what I did.

Q I don't care about what boys on the street asked you, but were you asked at the time you received this card, at the time you joined, and paid your ten cents, and was taken into membership, was your address inquired into?

A No sir.

Q How did you know when there was going to be a meeting for the purpose of drill?

A That was generally fixed on a week day. We were told when the next drill was going to be.

Q When was the first drill at which you attended?

A I think it was in August.

Q When was the next drill?

A The following Monday, Monday night.

Q And you were there?

A Yes sir.

Q That is the last of the drill so far as you were concerned?

A That is the last of the drills that I attended.

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Q I say so far as you were concerned the last?

A Yes sir.

Q Was there any arrangement by which there was a notice at the meeting to be put in the Arbeiter Zeitung, that you know of?

A Not that I know of.

Q You have spoken about Mr. Schwab making some speeches-- you don't understand German?

A I don't.

Q What is your mother tongue?

A I am a Dane.

Q You speak the language I suppose?

A Certainly.

Q You don't understand German?

A I do understand a little.

Q Do you understand enough to tell us what Mr. Schwab said in his speech?

A No sir.

Q So then, when you told us the other day that Schwab spoke and was applauded, you don't know whether he was applauded for his wit or for his sentiment, do you?

A No, I can't say that I do. I don't know what he said.

Q So then you don't know anything about the character of the speech he made, or the reason of the applause?

A I could not say that I do.

Q Was there anything said, any time fixed for making a raid on the Armory?

A No sir, no particular time.

Q Was there any general time?

A It was put off until the nights got longer, or got darker.

Q The nights were not long enough?

A No sir.

27 24

Q In the month of August to make a raid on the Armory, and it was put off until the nights got longer, and no time fixed?

A No sir.

Q No committee appointed to make the raid?

A Not that I know of.

Q No arrangements made for blowing up the Armory?

A Not that I know of.

Q When was it this occurred, do you know?

A Which do you refer to.

Q This conversation about the Armory--was that the month of August?

A Yes sir at the first meeting that I attended of the armed section.

Q Now then, September 2nd, your notes go on to state that Fielden said that they could not overturn a government, or something of that kind without force----that was just a repetition of what you heard him say before and what you have heard him say since?

A Yes sir.

Q There was no time fixed for force, or any particular or definite arrangement made for anything, just a talk--- that is all that it was, wasn't it upon that subject?

A It was a speech.

Q Well a speech. Now, you say that Mr. Fielden was asked this question at a meeting---"Would the destruction of private property secure co-operation". Now, do you understand that he said, "Would the destruction of private property

28 25

secure co-operation"?

A The destruction.

Q Not the division of personal property?

A No, the destruction.

Q That was the question that was asked him by some body?

A Yes sir.

Q To which he replied that no man can tell what a hundred years may bring forth?

A Yes sir.

Q Where was this meeting at which Mr. Fielden made this remark?

A At 106 Randolph Street.

Q Now, don't you know from your attendance at and the observation of the meeting, that instead of the destruction of property being discussed, that it was an argument in favor of control of private property, the abolition of the control of private property--in other words, the railway corporations should be run by the government, and that great institutions should be controlled in the interest of the people, rather than one or two or three men?

A That is not so.

Q No such an argument as that was ever made to your knowledge?

A Yes, there have been arguments made as to that.

Q You don't pretend to say that Mr. Fielden or any of the defendants here favor the absolute wiping out of property, of personal property?

A No, they favor the abolishment of private property.

Q The abolishment of the ownership as it was and is now

29 26

owned?

A Of private property.

Q That is, they were favorable to such societies and associations as the Amana Society, and others, in which there was a community of interests and ownership of property, in which there shall be no rich and no poor?

A That was part of their discussion.

Q In which there was no beggars, there was something for all, every man was required to work, and he was permitted to live---that was the general idea and the tenor of their speeches?

A To a certain extent, yes sir.

Q Now, you have spoken about Herr Most's book. Did you ever see Herr Most's book except in the German language?

A No sir.

Q Do you know that it was ever printed in English?

A I don't know anything about it. I never saw it in English print.

Q So that in any of the meetings at which you attended, or any place at any picnic or any where else, where Mr. Parsons and where Mr. Fielden were, you never saw an American edition, of what purported to be an English translation of Herr Most's book, did you?

A Yes sir, I have seen pamplets translated in Ebglish of Herr Most's work, but not of the book that you refer to.

Q I mean the book that has been introduced in evidence here?

A No, not of that book.

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Q Are there any English translations of that to your knowledge?

A Not to my knowledge.

Q Now then, I will ask you to refer to your notes to any meeting that you see fit, or all of them, and point out that portion of it in which you appoint the time fixed for any action, either in the private talk or public speech, anywhere, wherever the 1st of May was fixed for the time of action which you reported--just please point it out in your report. (Witness examines reports)

A I hold report of December 20th, and to the best of my recollection this was said on that day. You will find it stated there that I had a general conversation with Fielden.

Q I want you to point out where you said the 1st of May.

A That is not there, but you will find it stated that I had a general conversation with Fielden.

Q As a detective?

A No, not as a detective.

Q You were acting as a detective then, were you not?

A Yes sir.

Q Now you say that so important a matter as fixing the time when dynamite was to be used, and the city was to be captured, you omitted to report---is that true?

A I took no further notice of it.

Q You never reported the first of May in your written reports, did you, as being the time fixed?

A I might have done it and might not.

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Q Find it if you did?

A These are not all of my reports.

Q Where are the balance of them?

A At the Agency.

Q You think this is the meeting, do you?

A I think that is the date on which that was said.

Q On which you had that private conversation at the close of the meeting.

A I didn't say a private conversation.

Q Well, a conversation at the close of the meeting?

A A general conversation.

Q Now, if this was the time at which the private conversation was had, in which he fixed the 1st of May, I want to read to you a part of your report----

THE COURT: That is not the shape to put the question.

MR. FOSTER: I withdraw it.

Q In your report of that meeting which you reported to the company, the meeting in which the 1st of May was the time fixed, did you use these words: "After Fielden finished his speech he left the hall and went into the saloon underneath him, and I joined him and Underhill, and had a drink with them". Do you remember that circumstance?

A Yes I remember something about it.

Q Was that the occasion---was that the meeting?

A I said to the best of my belief that is the occasion.

Q That is the meeting?

A Yes sir.

Q That is the occasion when you went down to take the

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drink?

A To the best of my belief that was the occasion.

Q You remember going with Underhill down to the saloon and having a drink there?

A Yes sir.

Q You think that is the occasion on which he used this language, fixed the time?

A I said to the best of my belief that is the occasion.

Q Since I have referred to his going down, of his leaving before the meeting was out, and Underhill going down, and you going down and taking a drink---that still impresses you with the idea that that was the time?

A Well, to the best of my belief, I have already said.

Q Now then, (reads) "Before I could enter into any conversation with them, Fielden excused himself, saying that he had to go over to the North side, where he had to speak at a meeting, and Underhill and himself went away, and I returned to the hall".

A Yes.

Q You didn't report anything about fixing it the first of May?

A I already told you it might not be in writing.

Q You say in your report before you had time to get in conversation with him he excused himself and went away?

A They were talking at the time and it was while they were drinking.

Q Is there any place you can find where you reported the 1st of May as being the time fixed?

A There might be.

Q Can you find any?

A Perhaps not amongst those.

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MR. FOSTER: That is all.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION, BY Mr. Grinnell.

Q Did you see the Alarm from time to time?

A I did. I purchased copies regularly.

Q Did you visit, or were you with Parsons at other places in the United States than Chicago?

Objected to as not proper re-direct examination.

Objection sustained.

Q I will show you this paper (Handing witness the Alarm of October 17th, 1885) Look at that advertisement there. (Witness examines advertisement) Now, I will ask you if you saw the Alarm from time to time as it was issued?

Objected to as immaterial and not proper re-direct examination.

A Yes sir. (Paper referred to introduced in evidence on behalf of people).

(Same marked People's Ex. 17, in Vol of Exhibits hereto attached)

MR. FOSTER: Let him state. You may read that in evidence if you want it.

MR. GRINNELL: We will consider that read.

(See advertisement referred to here at end of witness' testimony).

Q In speaking about that girl, about which some resolutions were introduced. I will ask you if at that meeting at which the subject was broached at which you talked, and have been cross examined, whether any one was selected to perform any duty pursuant to any resolution there introduced?

34 31

Objected to as not proper re-direct examination.

Objection sustained.

MR. GRINNELL: I wish to know from this witness what part he took or was to take pursuant to that meeting.

THE COURT: Do you say in reference to that girl?

MR. GRINNELL: Yes sir.

THE COURT: That is no part of any public matter.

MR. GRINNELL: It may be. Mr. Ingham reminds me that Mr. Foster asked this witness if they ever compassed the death of any person, because of that transaction with the girl, or ever undertook to?

THE COURT: Yes, there was cross examination upon that question as to whether anything was done specifically towards avenging the supposed wrongs of that girl. If there was any specific action in reference to that matter, that would be a reply of what was brought out on the cross.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. Now, I will ask you, if any, what action was taken.

THE COURT: That is the Wight matter.

MR. GRINNELL: Yes, the Wight matter specifically.

MR. SALOMON: We object to any re-examination as to this matter, and besides that, object to it for indefiteness--- the question is not sufficiently definite.

THE COURT: Let the witness state what was done, and dont suggest in the question, what the answer shall he.

35 32

Defendants then and there excepted to the ruling of the court.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. What is the answer?

A In a conversation with a member, of the group, the American Group, named Bodendecker, he told me---

MR. FOSTER: That was not in the meeting.

THE WITNESS: It was not in the meeting

MR. GRINNELL: I will ask him this specific question, whether or not any member of that meeting at which the resolution was introduced, at any time afterwards informed you that you had been selected to take the life of some one or avenge the wrongs of that girl.

MR. FOSTER: That is ridiculous.

MR. GRINNELL: It was not ridiculous as I can show.

MR. SALAMON: I object to your saying what you cannot show. It is improper for you to state what you cannot show.

THE COURT: Any statements of supposed members of any organization to which it is supposed the defendants belonged, would not be evidence, but anything done towards carrying out the supposed objects of the supposed organization of which the defendants were supposed to be members, anything done by any of them towards carrying out any objects of the association, would be admissible, although the party who did it is not now on trial. That is to say, if there is such a case as that the State is permitted to argue to the jury that there

36 33

was a combination of a good many persons, then what each one of those persons did may be shown in evidence.

MR. BLACK: We don't think that applies to this case, to the evidence as it now stands.

MR. GRINNELL: I will withdraw the question until I prove the hand writing of the letter that I have, which has just been handed me this morning. I will leave that branch of the case for the present.

Q Mr. Johnson you spoke of the meeting of the American group, the armed sections at which you attended--the first meeting?

A Yes sir.

Q Will you tell me who of the defendants were present at that meeting?

A Parsons and Fielden.

Q Were anybody else present of the defendants at that meeting?

Objected to on the ground that the same question was asked on direct examination.

THE COURT: He only mentioned on Saturday those two. If he remembers now of any others that were present it is proper for him to state it.

THE WITNESS: A man was present resembling the defendant on the left.

Q Engel?

A Yes.

Q Is that as far as you can say about it?

A I would not positively say he was the man, but he resembles him very

37 34

much, and as to the best of my belief he is the man.

Q You have stated to us what occurred, or the conversation that you had with Spies about April 12th, 1885, in reference to the McCormick strike. Now, in regard to that, do you now know of any conversation that you had with Spies, other than that which you detailed Saturday?

A Yes sir.

Q You may state what it was?

Objected to on the ground that it is new matter.

Q I am asking now what he now remembers.

THE COURT: If the witness under examination has had other circumstances recalled to his memory, it ought to be permitted to go in a cross examination on that.

MR. GRINNELL: That is all.

Testimony of William A. Pinkerton, 1886 July 26. 37 34

WILLIAM A. PINKERTON, a witness called and sworn on behalf of the people, was examined in chief by Mr. Grinnell and testified as follows:

Q What is your name?

A William A. Pinkerton.

Q You are at present the head and chief of Pinkerton's National Detective Agency?

A I am.

Q Your office is in Chicago?

A One office here, yes sir.

Q Do you know the last witness, Johnson?

A Yes sir.

38 35

Q Did you agency, or did you, as the chief of that agency last year at any time engage the services of any man to as certain what was being done by the socialists, so-called, socialists or anarchists?

Objected to.

THE COURT: How is that admissible?

MR. GRINNELL: I want to follow it up by proving these reports were made for certain purposes at that time, at the instance of certain individuals. Mr. Foster has already asked questions about, endorsements pn the back of this paper.

MR. ZEISLER: Not of this witness.

THE COURT: That don't tend to show whether the reports are accurate or not. The reports themselves are not in evidence.

MR. GRINNELL: It only goes to show the good faith in the transaction.

MR. FOSTER: That is, you want to corroborate your detective witness before he is impeached?

MR. GRINNELL: What did you, if anything, do with these reports as they were received from time to time?

Objected to.

THE COURT: The only way these reports could come in evidence or anything in regard to them, would be by putting them in in the way of impeaching testimony. They cannot come in as original.

39 36

MR. GRINNELL: I am not trying to put the reports in at all.

THE COURT: Anything in regard to the reports.

MR. GRINNELL: I am trying to show that Mr. pinkerton presented the reports from day to day.

THE COURT: I don't think that is admissible.

MR. GRINNELL: This advertisement which you permitted me to read I will read now. It is an advertisement taken from the Alarm of October 17th, 1885, last year, in the adertising column, under the heading of "Organized Groups", this is among them. "The armed section of the American Group meets every Monday night at 54 West Lake Street." I offer that in connection with this witness's testimony.

Testimony of William H. Freeman, 1886 July 26. 40 37

WILLIAM H. FREEMAN, a witness called and sworn on behalf of the People, was examined in chief by Mr. Grinnell, and testified as follows.

Q What is your name?

A William H. Freeman.

Q You are a newspaper reporter?

A Yes sir.

Q On the Inter Ocean?

A Yes sir.

Q How long have you been employed there?

A About six months.

Q You were reporting for the paper on 4th of May last?

A Yes sir.

Q And also on April 25th last?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you attend and report a meeting held on the lake front on the 25th day of April last?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you see the procession?

A Yes sir.

Q Where did you come in contact with the procession, and what did you see?

A At the corner of Halstead and Madison Streets, I saw a large number of men marching--I saw they were marching South on Halsted Street. They were carrying banners of various sorts, and transparancies with inscriptions painted thereon.

Q Well, what did you do?

A I stood and watched the procession. I was attending to some matters at the time, and I watched them until they passed. I think the street car that I was riding on was stopped by reason of the passage of the procession, and I alighted from the car and went to

41 38

the corner of Halsted, and stood there until the procession had pretty nearly passed south of Madison Street. Then I went on West.

Q Later did you go to the Lake front?

A Yes, I came to the Lake front later and heard Mr. Parsons speak.

Q What did he say?

Objected to; overruled; exception.

Q Was there a large meeting there on April 25th?

A Yes, a very large number of them gathered there.

Q What did Parsons say, as near as you can remember---give me as many of his words as possible.

A I would not like to under take to repeat his own words, but he inveighed against all kinds of capital.

MR. FOSTER: Give his language as near as you can.

A I would not undertake to repeat the language of the gentleman except in one particular. I do remember that he said at one time, and one period in his address, that if the workingmen were driven to starvation, they would unfurl the banner of liberty and equality, and sweep everything before them, sweep away all their oppressors. He said it very dramatically, and turned and shook his finger at a red banner that was hanging on the platform.

Q What else did he say, if anything; what did he say in that speech about the eight hour movement?

A I have no reccollection

42 39

of hearing anything said about the eight hour movement,

Q What if anything was said by Parsons in the speech as to force or means to be used to attain their end?

Objected to as leading; objection overruled. Exception.

Q He urged the workingmen there to take up arms, and by that means right the wrongs which they were at that time under going.

Q Did you hear Spies speak?

A Yes sir.

Q What language did he speak.

A In German if I remember correctly.

Q You don't understand that language?

A No sir.

Q Did you hear Fielden speak?

A Yes sir.

Q What did he say?

A Well, I don't think that I could undertake to give his language, because at the time I did not charge my mind with it. I had no intention of going into the details of the speeches made by any of these parties.

Q Tell me, as near as you can, what did he talk about?

A He talked in the same strain that Mr. Parsons had.

Defendant's counsel moved that the answer be striken out.

The court ordered it striken out.

THE COURT: Repeat as rearly as you can the substance--- if you cannot repeat the words, give the substance of what he did say.

43 40

Objected to; overruled; exception.

A He simply claimed that all aggregation of property and all accumulation of property by individuals was a wrong, was against the best interests of the workingman. He claimed that the workingmen had a direct interest in everything that was produced, and that they could only be enabled to enjoy the fruits of their labor, and what belonged to them, by the use of force. There was no sort of persuasion or anything of the kind used. His language all went to---

MR. BLACK: Never mind as to your conclusions.

THE WITNESS: I was told by the judge to state what he said as near as possible---I am not saying what he did not say.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. Substantially what were the words used in regard to the use of force.

THE COURT: Q. Repeat what was used. If he said anything about state what he said about it, but if it is your conclusion that he was not using any persuasion, that is another thing, but if he said anything about using persuasion tell what he did say.

A He said nothing about it. I understood his whole argument was in favor of force. There was no way to secure these things, except by force.

Objected to.

44 41

MR. GRINNELL: Q. Is that what he said?

A Yes sir.

MR. BLACK: I don't understand that he is repeating or attempting to repeat what he said.

MR. GRINNELL: The substance.

THE WITNESS: The substance---I am giving what language means. So many words mean so many things.

Q Are you giving your conclusions in reference to the matter?

A I am only giving my impressions of so many words. If you ask me what book means, I will show it means so many printed words.

The last answer was here read to the witness.

THE WITNESS: In substance.

Q Did you hear other speakers there?

A Yes sir.

Q None of the defendants other than those you have mentioned?

A No sir, I believe not.

Q You were at the hay-market square on May 4th?

A Yes sir.

Q What time did you arrive there?

A I think about nine o'clock.

Q You may state what you saw and heard from the time you came there until the matter was over, through with, give it

45 42

historically and consecutively.

A I left the Inter Ocean office about seven o'clock.

THE COURT: Q. What happened after you got to the hay-market, no matter how you got there, but when you did get there, what happened?

Objected to in behalf of all the defendants not there; objection overruled; exception by defendants.

A I did not go to the hay-market, as I understand it, at all, on that evening. I did not get into the hay market at any time. I went to the corner of Randolph and Desplaines Street.

Q What did you see?

A There I saw a large number of men gathered in the middle of the block on Desplaines between Lake and Randolph, and some one was speaking from a wagon-- a number of men were standing on that wagon. I walked up into the crowd and saw that it was Mr. Parsons speaking. I listened to what he had to say for some little time, and then I walked into the crowd as far as possible, as I heard some one say Mayor Harrison was in the crowd, and went around on the outskirts looking to see if I could see him before I went into the crowd at all, and then I worked my way into the crowd and up to the wagon on which the speakers were standing. During that time Mr. Parsons had ceased speaking, and Mr. Spies, I believe it was, introduced Mr. Fielden to the

46 43

audience.

Q Give me what Parsons said first before you get to Fielden?

MR. BLACK: Give his words as near as you can remember.

THE COURT: Tell as nearly as you can recollect what he said,

A Well, he said, I remember particularly, alluding to Jay Gould that he was a robber, and spoke about his vast accumulations, and asked what they would do. Somebody in the crowd shouted out that they would hang him. Throw him in the lake-- something to that effect. Parsons said, "No, not yet". If they did that the result would be that another Jay Gould would pop up in his place like a jack in the box, and there would be no remedy by that means; that they must overturn the whole system by which Jay Gould was enabled to secure the vast amounts of money and power that he had secured, and the way to overturn that, or the way to overthrow that system, was by means of force, and he said, "To arms to arms", a number of times during his remarks. The whole tenor of his speech was in that vein.

MR. FOSTER: Never mind the tenor of it.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. What was the characteristic of the crowd, were they responsive, how did they act, how did the crowd itself act when the speaking was going on?

Objected to; objection overruled.

47 44

A They applauded from time to time the utterances of the speakers, and there were occasional assertions made. The ones I remember chiefly were in relation to Gould, their threats of hanging him and throwing him into the lake, and the reply of Mr. Parsons.

Q How large a crowd was that then?

A I think there was perhaps a thousand people there at that time.

Q How many were on the wagon?

A Some six or eight.

Q Was anything said by Parsons in his speech about militia or police or the weakness of the authorities?

A I don't recall now that he said anything about that.

Q Who was the next speaker after Parsons?

A Mr. Fielden.

Q State what Fielden said?

A Well, Fielden devoted a great deal of his time---

MR. FOSTER: Q. Tell us what he said, and then we can judge how much time he devoted.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. Go on and give it as near as you can.

A Fielden devoted a great deal of his time to discussing the Legislation.

Objected to; objection overruled; exception.

THE WITNESS: (Continuing). He discussed the legislation and congress. He spoke, particularly of the action of Martin Foran. He declared that Martin Foran had stated that no legislation could be enacted that would benefit the working man, and from that went on to argue that it was

48 45

clear that it was impossible for the workingman to obtain any sort of redress through legislation. He told them they ought not to be fools enough to send such men as Martin Foran to Congress and legislate for them when they admitted that there was no possibility of doing anything that would redound to the benefit of the working man. He also spoke I think of the revolution which established the government, and compared the revolution proposed by the workingmen, as he styled them, to that revolution. He asserted that it was equally as proper as the original revolution. Then he spoke, I remember particularly, just before the arrival of the police with reference to the law.

MR. FOSTER: Just one moment: The Inter Ocean is published in the morning, is it.

A Yes sir.

Q And your report was the next morning which would be the fifth?

A Yes sir.

Q Now go right ahead?

A He spoke of the law, and of all the acts of capital, as he styled it, I believe, and the oppressive acts of capital which injured the workingmen, as being the results of law, and urged the workingmen and his hearers to overthrow the law, to subvert it, to kill it, to stab it, and to throttle it, as I remember it. Those are about the last words that I remember to have heard him speak before the arrival of the police. They came up very quietly

49 46

and standing where I was between the two wagons, I had no knowledge that they were on the ground until the command to disperse was given. I heard that, and at once stepped on to the sidewalk and started to go towards the police. I had been standing I guess up at the upper end or the North end of the wagon, which stood there, and before I reached the other end of the wagon this bomb was exploded, and I could not at first realize what had occurred. The explosion made a great noise, but I saw no fire and no light. Immediately after the explosion the firing began, and I simply crouched behind the wagon for a moment or two, until I could determine what course to pursue, and then I went South towards the alley, and as soon as I thought it safe to go in, I saw there was no firing from there, I went into the alley. I remained in the alley South of the Crane Building until the firing had nearly ceased. Then I came out, and after looking over the ground a moment went to the Desplaines Street Station.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. Did you hear Fielden make any response to the declaration of the officer to disperse?

A I did not, no sir.

Q Did you see him afterwards?

A No sir.

Q Which wagon were you crouched behind, the one the speakers were standing on, or the one just North of it?

A The one the speakers were standing on.

50 47

Q Did you see any people around you when you were behind it?

A I think I was almost alone in the space behind it.

Q Then you run in the alley?

A Yes.

Q Do you know where the firing began first?

A No sir, I don't. The firing was similtaneous almost, after the explosion of the bomb.

Q Is the noise of the explosien of the bomb the first thing that you saw?

A The first thing I heard. I saw nothing to indicate an explosion.

Q After the firing ceased you went down to Desplaines Street Station?

A Yes sir. I went first into the middle of the street and saw two officers laying there badly wounded, and I spoke to them and neither one replied to me; and then I went to the corner and two patrol wagons were there and I directed one of the Sergeants on the wagon to go to the two officers, and told them they were badly wounded; and he drove there; and then I went directly to the station.

Q Whom did you see upon the wagon whom you recognized besides Parsons, Fielden and Spies?

A I think I saw Schwab there.

Q Whom else---did you see any of the other defendants, any of these defendants there that you recognized?

A I did not recognize any of them, but those three. I am not a together positive about Schwab, but I think I saw him there.

51 48

Q Prior to your seeing these people speaking on the wagon, had you seen any of the defendants that night, prior to your going to the wagon where Parsons was speaking, had you seen any of the defendants before?

A That same night?

Q Yes sir.

A No sir, that was the first I saw of them.

Q Where did you first land in that vicinity---you went to the hay-market, and it was advertised as the hay-market meeting---did you go out there?

A No sir, I did not go there at all.

Q You came out by way of Randolph, and having seen the meeting, you went on?

A Yes sir.

Q How many people were there when you first got there?

A I think there was about a thousand, as narly as I could estimate---it was very dark in the street there and difficult to see without ing right into the people.

Q Do you remember whether there was any light on the wagon where the speakers were?

A There was none that I saw.

Q Do you remember that the lamp was lighted at the corner of the alley?

A I think it was.

Q Do you know whether the lamp was at any time extinguished afterwards?

A I don't think it was.

52 49

CROSS EXAMINATION, By Mr. Foster.

Q At the time you were down to the Lake front, and heard these speakers, do you remember how many stands the speakers were speaking from?

A Yes sir.

Q How many?

A Two.

Q As a matter of fact didn't Mr. Parsons and Mr. Fielden speak from different stands?

A Yes sir.

Q Were you in a position where you could listen to what they both said at the same time?

A No sir, they did not both speak at the same time.

Q But they spoke from different stands?

A They spoke from different stands.

Q How many speakers were there on that occasion there?

A I don't know. There were five or six that I remember to have heard.

Q Did you listen to Mr. Parsons from the time that he began until he closed, and then to Mr. Fielden from the time that he began until he closed?

A No sir, Mr. Parsons was speaking when I reached the ground.

Q You, I suppose had been in the habit of attending the Lake front meetings before that to some extent?

A I don't think that I ever attended a socialistic meeting on the Lake front before. I attended them at various other points.

53 50

Q How long have you been a reporter on the Inter Ocean?

A About six months.

Q Six months now?

A Yes sir.

Q You have just entered into the business then for the Inter Ocean?

A For the Inter Ocean, yes sir.

Q How long have you been a reporter?

A About five years.

Q How long were you down on the Lake front?

A I suppose I was there two hours, perhaps not so long--I am not clear about that.

Q You did not go to the hay-market meeting until about nine o'clock?

A About nine o'clock when I reached the ground.

Q You did not hear Spies speak?

A No sir.

Q Parsons was then speaking when you arrived?

A Yes sir.

Q When this reference was made to Gould, about throwing him into the Lake, some fellow yelled, "Throw him into the lake"?

A I think he said "Throw him into the lake, or hang him".

Q Some such remark as some men usually get off?

A Yes.

Q And he said, "No, not yet"?

A Yes sir.

Q And then went on to argue that the time had not come for any personal violence, but the whole system had got to be undermined, or else another Jay Gould would take his place?

54 51

A Yes sir, pop up like a jack in a box.

Q That is about all you remember about his speech?

A Yes sir, I remember the tenor of his speech.

Q I don't care about the tenor or the base of it. You cannot give the language of it except what you have given here in regard to that particular point?

A No sir.

Q He introduced then Mr. Fielden?

A I think Mr. Spies made the speech introducing Mr. Fielden.

Q Mr. Spies introduced Mr. Fielden?

A Yes sir.

Q Then he discussed this congressional question?

A Yes sir.

Q As to what Congress had the right to do, and what this particular representative said he could not do?

A Yes sir.

Q And he was speaking as to the means of assisting the laboring man?

A Yes sir.

Q Had the meeting decreased in numbers any up to that time?

A I think not.

Q Do you remember there was a cloud came up there, and it was threatening, and indications of rain, and the crowd began to disperse?

A I remember something of that kind, yes sir.

Q Was not that before the close of his address that the crowd began to disperse?

A. Before the close of Fielden's speech?

Q Yes sir.

A Yes sir, but not before the remarks you

55 52

have been talking about.

Q I mean before the close of his address there was much less than a thousand persons there, was there not, if there had been a thousand at the beginning?

A I don't think there was more than two hundred or three hundred left at the time the cloud came up.

Q When was it these responses were made from the audience, was it occasionally along through the meeting, or more particularly while Mr. Parsons was speaking?

A No sir, it was throughout the entire meeting.

Q That is there would be clapping of hands, or any number might applaud a sentence?

A Yes.

Q But there was nothing unusual in the demonstration that you observed?

A Nothing remarkable, no sir.

Q That is, you would not regard it as being a riotous meeting, no fights there?

A No sir.

Q No loud talking by any of the audience there?

A The talk was all suppressed.

Q It was what you would call an ordinarily quiet meeting, so far as you observed?

A So far as the demeanor of the crowd was concerned it was quiet enough.

Q As you came up there between the two wagons, and forced your way into the crowd, hunting for Mayor Harrison, you took a position between the wagon on which the speeches were being made and one which stood further North, as I understood it?

56 53

A Yes sir.

Q Along the curb-stone?

A Yes sir.

Q What was the distance between those two wagons about?

A Six or eight feet.

Q You stood between them?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you remember particularly where a telegraph pole stood at that point, a large telegraph pole?

A No sir, I do not.

Q You were there some little time after the trouble was over you tell me?

A Yes sir.

Q Were you there the next day?

A I don't think I was.

Q Did you make any examination from that telegraph pole there as to which way bullets came from that were in that pole?

A No sir.

Q Have you made any examination to find whether or not that pole has been cut down and removed since that time?

A No sir.

Q You don't know anything about that?

A I remember a telegraph pole I think, at the Northwest corner of Randolph and Lake.

Q I mean right there about where the wagon stood--you don't remember any pole or post there?

A I don't remember any by the wagon, no sir.

Q You say that the first you heard was, the bomb exploded?

57 54

A Yes sir.

Q If those wagons were within six or eight feet of each other, you must have been from where Fielden was speaking within eight or ten feet, were you not?

A Yes sir, easily.

Q You heard no exclamation after this proclamation was made from Mr. Fielden at all, did you?

A No sir, my attention was then concentrated on the officers, and I thought nothing further about the meeting.

Q You saw Captain Ward, when he stepped up and commenced to speak there, asking the mob to disperse?

A No sir, I did not see Captain Ward to recognize him, until I saw him at Desplaines Street Station.

Q You heard what he said---"In the name of the People of the State of Illinois, I command you to quietly and peaceably disperse"?

A No sir, I could not hear that. I could catch enough of the words to know he did say that, but I did not hear all those words.

Q You did not hear Mr. Fielden in a loud voice say, "We are peacable", or any such thing as that?

A No sir.

Q And you were within eight or ten feet of him?

A Yes sir.

Q Mr. Fielden was facing to the Westward, was not he as he spoke?

58 55

A Yes, to the westward, and from time to time to the Southwest.

Q To the Southwest in the direction of the Desplaines Street Station?

A Yes sir.

Q Now, did you hear him make any other remark than you have stated contained in the speach you have testified to?

A I heard him make no remarks that were not part of his address, part of the speech.

Q You did not hear him say then, "There come the blood hounds now", or anything of that kind?

A No sir.

Q You did not hear him say in that connection, "Here come the blood hounds; now you do your duty and I will do mine"?

A No sir, I did not.

Q Now, do you believe if he had said that in a loud voice so the audience could have heard it, that you would have heard it standing where you did?

Objected to; objection sustained.

Q Was there anything to attract your attention to prevent your hearing that remark that you know of if it had been made?

A Well, I suppose that unless the remark had been made in a very loud tone of voice, I should not have heard it, because I thought nothing about the speaking when the police came.

MR. BLACK: Q. Before the police came?

A No sir, before the police came I don't think I heard any such remark%.

59 56

Q There was nothing you know of to prevent your hearing that remark, if Mr. Fielden had said it in a loud tone of voice before you were aware of the presence of the police?

A No sir.

Q Your business was to listen and hear?

A Yes.

Q Were you within hearing distance and listening?

A Yes sir.

Q You had ceased to look for May or Harrison in the meantime?

A Yes sir.

Q And you were paying attention to what was said?

A Yes.

Q Did you hear him make any remark after you heard the proclamation for the crowd to disperse?

A No sir.

Q Did you see him withdraw from the wagon?

A My mind is not clear on that at all. I don't remember anything that occurred after I started to go to the officers. The thing happened so quickly that nothing was clear to me beyond the movements I made myself.

Q You say that as soon as you heard the proclamation you started south towards the police?

A Yes sir.

Q You were disposed to go towards the police not run away from them?

A Yes sir.

Q Were you on the sidewalk when you started to go towards the police, or were you on the street?

A On the sidewalk.

Q Near the curb-stone?

A I think about midway of the walk It is a Widewalk.

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Q Do you think you got along side of the wagon before the pistol shooting began?

A Did I get alongside of it--how do you mean.

Q Alongside of the wagon--the speaker's wagon?

A I was on the sidewalk between the wagon and the buildings all teh time until I got to the alley.

Q Now then, I understand you crouched down behind the wagon?

A Yes sir.

Q What part of the wagon did you crouch behind?

A I didnt go to the wagon at all, simply below it, so that if possible, I could avoid any bullets. I did not go close to the wagon.

Q How far from the wagon?

A Three or four feet from it.

Q Was your face towards the wagon?

A No sir, facing South.

Q South, towards the police?

A Yes sir.

MR. GRINNELL: He did not say facing South towards the police.

MR. FOSTER: Q. Were you facing towards the police?

A Facing South.

Q Is that in the direction where the police were drawn up?

A Faced out to my right in the street.

Q Your face was South, and the police were at an angle to your right.

A Yes sir, at an angle to my right in the street.

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Q And you got down there?

A Yes sir.

Q How long were you down there?

A A very short time, I don't know---just about four or five seconds, I didn't stay any longer than I could.

Q At the time you were crouching down there, while this firing was going on, down opposite to the wagon on the sidewalk, and near it, did you see any shots fired between you and the wagon?

A There was a dense smoke there I did not see any shots fired at all.

Q There was a dense smoke all around there?

A Yes sir.

Q How near were you to the platoon of police that were firing?

A I think I was perhaps ten feet in front of them, and about to their right from six to eight feet.

Q There was smoke all around?

A Yes sir.

Q And you saw no distinct individual firing

A I saw no firing. I saw two officers at one time with their revolvers pointed dangerously close at me, but as to seeing actual shooting by any individual, I did not see any. I saw flashed.

Q You don't know whether any officer drew a bead and fired at you?

A I don't think they did, I know two of them did draw a bead on me at one time, but neither of them fired.

Q You saw two of them draw a bead on you?

A Yes sir, I did.

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Q Neither of them fired?

A Neither fired. Both were against the wagon, and their revolvers pointed across it.

Q Both against the wagon on the other side, that is on the street side?

A On the street side, yes.

Q At that time you left, and came along at the end of the alley?

A Yes sir, the alley.

Q Did you have any talk with the policeman--did you tell them not to shoot?

A No sir, I didn't tell them anything.

Q You lit out?

A I lit out.

Q And went down the alley?

A Yes sir.

Q You say the reason you worked towards the alley was because from the alley there was no shooting?

A Yes sir, I saw there was no shooting there, and saw an officer or two go in there.

Q You were cool enough to know the place of safety for you to go was in the direction from which no bullets were coming?

A Certainly.

Q You saw nobody fire about the mouth of the alley, or down the alley?

A No sir.

Q And went in that direction?

A Yes.

Q As a matter of fact, a considerable portion of the crowd were right in there where you were? Was there any body between you and the wagon, do you believe?

A I don't think there was any body between me and the wagon. At the time I

63 60

come there, there was a few people south of the alley, where the boxes stood.

Q That was further south?

A Yes sir, south of the alley.

Q How far was it from where you were to where the boxes stood south of this Crane's alley?

A I have never measured the distance, but I suppose it was 25 or 30 feet..

Q Now then, at that time did you see any body between you and the wagon, either before or at the time you went up there, or after the explosion of the bomb?

A I don't remember to have seen any one on the sidewalk between the alley and the wagon where I stood.

Q Was that after the explosion of the bomb, and while you were nearer to the wagon that where you were, and between you and the wagon?

A No sir.

Q Your attention had been directed of course, to Fielden up to the time you heard the command to disperse?

A Yes.

Q Which we learn was made by Captain Ward?

A Yes.

Q Did you see any shots fired from the wagon?

A No sir.

Q You didn't see Mr. Fielden shoot as he got off the wagon, jumped off the wagon?

A No sir.

Q Where would Mr. Fielden's position be from where you squatted down by the side of the wagon, that is, on the

64 61

street opposite the wagon, and where the platoon of police we drawn up, Lieut Steele's Co the first ones in front?

A Fielden would have been about I Judge from eighteen to twenty feet in front of them, and to their right a little bit, that is he would not strike the center of the platoon at all

Q would the hind end or the wheel of the wagon, the south wheel of the wagon, would that be from where you squatted down in a line between the policemen drawn up in the street and where you were?

A No sir,

Q Where would it be?

A It would be in front of the policemen

Q The wagon would be directly in front, and you would be a little to the side, a little further north?

A% yes sir%

Q% When did you settle down in this position, was it when the bomb first exploded?

A% No sir, not until after the firing began%

Q% What particular firing did you observe began---- was it firing that you heard, or firing that you saw?

A% Firing that I heard%

Q% From where you were there could you tell the location of the firing?

A% No sir%

Q% You would not know whether it was on one side or the other side?

A% No sir%

Q% I will ask you whether or not as you stood there and

65 62

heard the bomb explode, whether or not you saw a number of the crowd firing revolvers?

A% No sir, I did not see any% I saw a number of flashes afterwards%

Q% After the police had fired?

A% After the bomb had exploded% then the firing began% Who was firing I don't know, except I presume the Officers were?

Q% You knew the police fired?

A% I saw the flashes, but in the smoke I did not see anybody holding a revolver and discharging it% I saw no connection between any individual and any explosion%

Q% Those were the first flashes you saw after the flashes of the bomb?

A% Yes sir, I saw them near the police, where the police were at the time%

Q? Now, as a matter of fact, do you remember whether Mr% Parsons stayed on that wagon until the Bomb exploded?

A% Yes sir, I do%

Q% You say that he did stay there?

A% No, I do not. I say I remeber%

Q% Now, as a matter of fact, I will ask if your memory is that before the bomb exploded, after some little time, after he concluded his speech, of his getting off the wagon, and going away?

A% Yes, I remember he did%

Q% How long after he finished speaking was it that he got off and retired?

A% I do not know just how long%

Q% He went towards Lake Street, didn't he, North?

A. Yes sir.

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Q. You observed him to that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. This was not very long I suppose after he had finished speaking?

A% I do not think it was a great while.

Q. As soon as he had finised and sat down, Mr. Fielden was introduced and began, and very soon after that Parsons withdrew from the wagon, and went north?

A% Yes%

THE COURT% Q. By what part of the wagon were you crouched down?

A. I was on the side, on the walk, about midway. I did not endeavor to shield myself behind the wagon, and make a place of refuge at all, because I knew it would not do.

Q. You were on the sidewalk about midway of the wagon, and on the east side of the wagon?

A% On the east side of the wagon. Yes.

Mr.% FOSTER. Q% How near the curbstone do you say?

A. Three feet, something like that.

Q. And the wagon wheels were right up against the curbstone, two of them?

A. Pretty near the curb-stone, maybe a foot away.

Q. Do you remember that you noticed particularly?

A. I paid no particular notice to the wagon% It seemed to have stood there just about as it was backed up and the horses unhitched, as I seen wagons stand there a good many times%

Q. Do you mean to say that the wagon was backed up against the Walk?

67 64

A. Not with the rear of the wagon against the walk, but I have seen wagons standing in the same position a good many times at the Foundry.

Q. It looked as though somebody had driven the wagon up against the curb-stone, and left the wagon there just as they unhitchd it, and it was the same as when they went away at night?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You were within three feet of the curb-stone you should think, just a single step next to the wagon, and could step down?

A% Yes sir.

Q. You say you were there probably five or six seconds after the general fusilade began?

A. After the bomb exploded, I think, yes.

Q. You were crouching five or six seconds perhaps?

A% Perhaps that long, yes.

Q% I understand you to say you think Schwab was there-----are you sure?

A. I would not say I was sure about it.

Q. You would not say that Schwab was at that meeting at all after Parsons began to speak?

A. No sir.

Q. Yet you remember that during Mr. Fielden's speech, and when that threatening cloud came up, of Mr. Parsons suggesting the storm, and saying that we had better adjourn, or hadn't we better adjourn to Zepf's Hall?

A% Yes sir.

Q. When was it you heard Mr% Parsons say that?

68 65

A. It was while Fielden was speaking, and some few moments before the police came up.

Q. How many minutes would you think before the police came that Mr. parsons proposed an adjournment to Zepf's Hall?

A. I think perhaps five or ten minutes, maybe.

Q. In reply to that did not Mr. Fielden say "I am just about through, and then we will go home."

A. He said something to that effect.

Q. Then in a few minutes after that you heard this proclamation from which you learned that the police were there?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Did you see the bomb in the air?

A. No sir.

Q. Do you know about the location of it when it exploded?

A. No sir. Except from mere guess work% I saw from the ground afterwards.

Q. It seemed to be quite a good deal south of where you were and west?

A. Yes

Q. How far do you think, from where you were standing by the wagon, from investigations whether made then or afterwards?

A, I judge at least-----

Mr% GRINNELL. Tell what you saw.

THE COURT. He said he did not see anything.

Mr% FOSTER. Q. Could you from an examination of the ground afterwards? tell where it exploded

Objected to.

THE COURT. If he examined the street afterwards he

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may describe the appearance which the street presented from the examination.

Mr% Foster. Q. I believe you said something about that you did not regard the wagon was very substantial breast works for you?

A. No sir, I did not.

Q. The firing was coming from that direction---- at least the police were shooting, you could see them?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You could see a couple of them cover you with revolvers?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You did not regard the wagon as being any protection at all?

A. No sir.

Q. As a matter of fact it was merely a truck, and the only protection would be the bottom boards and the wheels?

A. That is about all.

Q. There was no box to it, no body?

A. No sir.

Q. From what you saw there of the flashes, and all that you saw, can you tell about where the bomb struck in the street and exploded?

Objected to on the ground that he did not see any flash.

Q. Did'nt you see the flash of the bomb?

A. No sir.

Q. So then you do not know where it did strike the street?

A. I do not know anything about that.

A JUROR. I wish him to state how long Mr. Fielden spoke.

THE COURT. Give him your impression as to the length

70 67

of time, the Juror wants to know, Fielden was speaking.

A. I think he spoke perhaps twenty minutes.

Mr% FOSTER. Q. After Mr. Parsons said he was in favor of adjourning to Zepf's Hall, and Mr. Fielden had responded that he was about through, he would conclude in a moment, how long did he continue speaking before the police came?

A. I said about five or ten minutes I think.

Q. now, do you remember of Mr. Fielden saying just before you heard this proclamation, these words "Now in conclusion I will say" or did he use the words "in conclusion" that you heard?

A. I don't recall those words at all.

Q. Before you went into the crowd, were you at the station that evening?

A. No sir, not until after the trouble.

Q, Did you have any conversation with any of the policemen, any of the police force, or any of the detective force, or any of the officers of the city, in regard to the meeting?

A. No sir%

Mr% GRINNELL At what time?

Mr% FOSTER. Q. At any time before the meeting, before you went to the meeting you say you had no such conversation?

A. I had no such conversation with no one, no sir%

Testimony of Joseph Gruenhut, 1886 July 26. 71 68

JOSEPH GREUNHUT, a witness called and sworn on behalf of the people, was examined in chief by Mr. Ingham, and testified as follows:-

Q. What is your name?

A% Joseph Greunhut.

Q. What is your business?

A. I am Factory and Tenement house Inspector, of the Health Department.

Q. How long have you occupied that position?

A. Six years.

Q. How long have you lived in this city?

A., Thirty years.

Q. Do you know the defendants?

A, Yes sir; that is I know Mr. Spies, Parsons, Neebe, Fielden and Schwab. The others I might know by sight, but not otherwise.

Q. How many of the others do you know by sight?

A. I don't know whether I know them or not. I could not tell.

Q, How long have you been acquainted with Spies?

A. Well, perhaps six years.

Q, How long have you been acquinted with Parsons?

A. Ten years.

Q. How long have you been acquainted with Fielden?

A. I suppose about two years or more.

Q. And with Schwab?

A. Well, maybe two years or more. Maybe more or less.

Q. Do you know Neebe?

A. I know Neebe a long time.

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q. How long have you known him?

A. Perhaps fifteen or twenty years.

Q, Were you in the habit of meeting any of them often?

A, Yes sir, daily.

Q. Where did you meet them?

A. Maybe at meetings, or maybe at the office of the Paper, the "Arbeiter Zeitung"

Q. At what sort of meetings?

A. Labor meetings.

Q. Were you yourself interested in labor movements?

A, Yes sir.

Q. With what branches of the labor movement?

A. It used to be called in the beginning the Labor Party of the United States. It changed its name into the Socialistic Labor Party etc.

Q. You are a socialist yourself?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You are an Anarchist?

A. No, I do not consider myself an Anarchist.

Q. But you are a Socialist?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Were you a member of any groups of the International in this city?

A. No sir.

Q. Or of any of the Companies of the Lehr and Wehr Vehrein?

A. No sir.

Q. Or with any organizations of the Central Labor Union?

A. No.

Q. You say you were in the habit of meeting them at the office of the Paper--- Office of what Paper?

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A. The Arbeiter Zeitung

Q. How often were you in the habit of meeting any of the defendants there?

A. I suppose six times a week, maybe more.

Q. Were you present on the occasion of an interview between a Reporter of the Daily News and Mr. Spies?

A. Yes%

Q. Was that Reporter Mr. Wilkinson?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Whehe was the first interview which you heard between those gentlemen,

A. It was in the Office of the Arbeiter Zeitung, in the forenoon.

Q. You introduced Mr. Wilkinson, did you not?

A. Yes.

Q. To Mr. Spies?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Were you afterwards present at a conversation between those gentlemen at a Restaurant?

A. Yes sir, on the evening of that same day, I guess.

Q. What restaurant was that?

A. It used to be called Burke's Hotel. I don't know the name now, on Madison St% I suppose it has the same name now.

Q. That was the evening of the same day?

A. Between six and seven I suppose.

Q. Did you take supper there together?

A. Yes all three of us.

Q. State the converstaion which took place there between Spies and yourself and the Reporter?

Objected to by Defendants Counsel as incompetent and

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immaterial and particulary in behalf of the defendants other than Spies%

The Court overruled the objection, to which ruling of the Court, defendants Counsel then and there excepted.

A. Mr. Wilkinson the reporter, asked several questions, and they were answered. I don't suppose I will be able to recollect all of it, because I did not take at that time much interest in it.

Q. Give all that you can recollect?

Same objection and and exception.

A. Mr. Wilkinson asked him how many members belonged to the military societies of organized trade and labor unions, the Lehr and Wehr Vehrein etc. Well, as far as I recollect Mr. Spies told him there were many thousands, and thereupon the reporter him asked him whether the names, etc. residences and such like could be given, and Mr. Spies told him that these organizations although they were open for everybody, for any man to become a member, and although at meetings people were asked to become members of military organizations, their names would not be known, because they did not keep any record of names. The men would be numbered, and would not be know to each other personally except by number.

Q. Known only by their numbers?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Give the rest of the conversation, as nearly as you can recollect it?

A. The reporter asked him about the effectiveness of Dynamite Bombs, and enquired and wanted to

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know whether a small number of men on Street corners or on the tops of houses would be able to stand up against squads of po icemen, or companies of militia, and Mr. Spies took some toothpicks on the table, and laid them down so as to show the poition of armed men on the tops of houses or on street corners, and how they could keep a company of militia or squad of policemen in check. That was about all. Of course the conversation was kept on in a conversational style, half joking etc. and it lasted perhaps a quarter of am hour, while we were taking our supper and drinking.

Q. You say he used sticks to illustrate the diagram?

A. Toothpicks.

Q. How long did that converstaion last?

A. I dont suppose it lasted over fifteen minutes, while we were taking our supper.

Q. You took your supper in fifteen minutes?

A. It did not last longer than that.

Q. Were you in the office of the Arbeiter Zeitung on Monday before the Haymarket Meeting?

A. On the third of the month.

Q. Yes sir, the day before the Haymarket meeting?

A, Yes sir, I think I was there in the afternoon%

Q. Do you think you were, or do you know you were there?

A. Yes sir, I was there.

Q. Who was present there at that time?

A. As far as I recollect, I saw Mr% Spies, Mr% Schwab, and the Book-keeper

76 73

and maybe I saw Mr. Neebe there% I think I did but I am not quite sure.

Q. What time in the day was it?

A. I think it was after five O'Clock --- may have been between five and seven. May have been there half an hour.

Q, What room were you in?

A. It was on the second floor.

Q, What part of the floor?

A. In the front part, the office of the paper.

Q. The office of the paper?

A. Yes sir.

Q. What did you say there, What conversation did you have, if any?

A, If I recollect a right, I asked Mr. Spies about his experience out there at the meeting at Mc% Cormicks Factory.

Q. What did he say about that?

A. He said he had been there making a speech on the invitation of the Central Labot union. That at the beginning there was some men objected to his making a speech because he was a socialist%

Q. Whom did he say the men were that were objecting to his making a speech?

A. Some of the Officers of the Lumber Shovers Union I suppose, but afterwards they appointed him on a Committee of arbitration for the society.

Q, Who appointed him on the committee?

A. The meeting did, and he said, that after he had made his speech, he was told by some man who came from Mc. Cormick's factory, that the police were shooting and killing a number of men, and he said that

77 74

it looked rather strange to him that a vast mass of people would allow themselves to be clubbed down and shot at, and that people would go to such meetings in great masses without any means of self-defense, and would thereby be clubbed down and shot down and driven away like a flock of sheep. He looked very much excited, and was tired out, and if I recollect right, I dont know whether it was that afternoon or the next afternoon, he said that it would be necessary to have another editor, he was overworked--- he was too tired--- I can't recollect.

Q. At the time you were talking about the trouble at Mc. Cormicks did he say anything about the means of defense, the kind of means that could be used?

a. Well, it is such a length of time ago, and at that time I had no particular interest in keeping that in my mind; if I recollect right he didn't mean Revolvers or Winchester Rifles. He meant Dynamite Bombs. I didn't ask him that way.

Defendants Counsel moved to strike the last answer out.

THE COURT. Strike that out and let him now tell what he remembers that Spies said.

THE WITNESS. Spies said that it looked very queer to him that vast masses of people would run to a mass meeting anywhere and men would come there without any means of self defense, and would be clubbed down by a hand full of policemen and shot

78 75

down, and driven apart like a flock of sheep; that if these men were armed they could not be driven away that way. They could hold their arms.

Q. What did he say about the method of arming?

Mr. FOSTER. Wait a minute, and let him finish his answer.

THE COURT. If that question is not fully answered, and if he said anything about the kind of arms, tell what he said.

A. I could not swear positively now that he said Dynamite Bombs---- I could not swear to that.

Q. How long since you were in the office of the State's Attorney?

A. I just came from there.

Q. Did you have a converstaion there with Mr. Grinnell, and Mr. Furthman and myself, in which I questioned you?

Objected to; Objection sustained.

Q. When were you there on Tuesday?

A. I was there Tuesday afternoon.

Q. What time Tuesday afternoon?

A. It must have been between five and six, or six and seven.

Q. With whom did you have a conversation at that time?

A. When I came there I saw Mr% Spies and Mr. Schwab and Mr. Fricke, and a good many others.

Q. Who else did you see there at that time?

A. Rau was there too I think.

Q. Do you know Rau's first name?

A. Balthazar Rau.

Q. Who else was there that you remember?

A. I could

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not recollect more than that.

Q. Who do you say was there?

A. Spies, Schwab, Fricke Rau, and maybe half a dozen others, but I did not take interest enough to keep it in my mind.

Q, Did you have any conversation at that time with Mr. Spies?

A. We spoke of the general condition, and about having a mass meeting in the open air, a general mass meeting of all people who were interested in the eight hour movement, as far as I can recollect.

Q. Was anything said at that time about his employment on the Arbeiter Zeitung?

A. Well, he said either that evening or the evening before that he would be there Monday afternoon or Tuesday afternoon, that he felt himself overworked and sick, and told Fricke there ought to be another man next day to act as Editor.

Q. Since when do you remember of his saying anything about being overworked?

Objected to.

Q, When did you first remember of his saying anything about being overworked?

A. He might have said it on Monday.

Mr% BLACK. What is the Court's ruling?

THE COURT. That is not admissible% The question is what conversation he had with him that afternoon.

Mr% INGHAM. Q. When was it you first heard any talk

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about a meeting at Haymarket Square?

A. I think that was Monday.

Q. Where was it?

A. It was at the office of the Arbeiter Zeitung. It was at a general mass meeting of all those interested in the eight hour movement, without regard to nationality or trade or occupation.

Q. What time Monday was it?

A. It must have been in the afternoon between five and seven anyhow.

Q. When you were there Monday night, what was Spies doing, what was he engaged in?

A. When I came there he was writing. He was writing for---- Well, he was about done writing some circulars that were to be printed for distribution for the mass meeting.

Q. When was that?

A. That was Monday.

Q. Did you see him do anything after that?

A. After that writing?

Q. Yes Sir?

A. No sir.

Q. Did you see him correcting any proofs?

A. Yes sir.

Q. When was that?

A. That was at the same time.

Q. That was Monday?

A. That was part of the proof of the circular on which he was writing.

Q. Now, what time Monday was it, that you saw him correcting the proofs?

A. That was in the evening sometime, between five and six or five and seven--- I dont recollect any more the time, but he was writing and reading proof at the same time%

Mr% INGHAM. That is all.

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Cross- Examination By Mr% Foster.

Q. Would you know that circular that you saw him correcting the proof of, if you would see it?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You say you understood it to be a circular calling a mass meeting?

A. Calling an eight hour mass meeting.

Q. Look at that, and see if that is the circular, and see whether that called any meeting. (Shows witness circular)

A. I did not see it that way at all. I only saw slips of four or five lines. I did not care about looking at it.

Q. Do you know whether that is the same one or not? (Witness examines circular)

A. I guess it is.

Q. You think that was probably it?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Does that call a mass meeting?

THE COURT. What that calls for is shown by itself.

Mr% FOSTER. Q. Was anything said in that converstaion about a mass meeting at all?

A. As far as I recollect they were talking about the advisability or necessity of having a mass meeting in the open air for all interested in the eight hour movement.

Q. That was the general talk in the office there. You say in this connection when you were talking about this, Mr% Spies was there and had been writing this circular?

A. Had been writing. I did not look at his writing---- I did not

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look at his own handwriting%

Q. You saw some copy that was brought in there, what they had run off and sent down. Did you see that word there on the top, the first word?

A. "Revenge."

Q. Yes sir?

A. I cant remember.

Q. Now at the time that you were present, at the discussion over the toothpicks there, in the prsence of Mr% Wilkinson was there anything said by Mr. Spies about when there was going to be any trouble in Chicago?

A. There was no date fixed.

Q. Now, when he took up the toothpicks and spoke about how a force might be resisted, did he say that that was the way they were going to do in Chicago, or did he only speak in general terms?

A. It was a statement on general principles.

Q. So from the whole conversation, you did not learn and gather from that that there was to be an attack made on the 1st% May, and this was to be the defense?

A. No sir.

Q. Nothing of the kind?

A. No sir.

Q. You say the conversation lasted some fifteem minutes?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Lasted some fifteem minutes while you were in there taking your lunch?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Wilkinson would keep asking him about things%

A. Yes sir

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Q. Did'nt Spies tell him that there was a great many thousand people armed here in Chicago, and laughed about it?

A. I can't recollect whether he laughed about it, but that was the statement, that there were thousands of them, and did not want any secret made of it.

Q. From the meeting there that was taking place, and from your acquaintance with Mr. Spies, was he joking with this man, was that the appearance that you gathered from it?

A. Well, I would not think that he joked about the numbers, about the thousands, I would not have taken it as a joke at all

Q. You would not take that part of it as a joke?

A. No sir.

Q. Do you remember how many thousands it was, ten or fifteen thousand?

A. No% Two or three thousand.

Q. It was not something from eight to ten thousand, that you remember?

A. No sir.

Q. You say you introduced him at Mr% Spies office%

A. Yes sir.

Q. You stayed there awhile, while he was talking with Spies%

. Yes.

Q. Did he go away at the same time that you did that first day?

A. You mean at noon?

Q. When you took him over and introduced him first, before he went to lunch?

A. That did not last long--- that was a few minutes.

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Q. That was just a few minutes?

A. Yes.

Q, Then you made arrangements to meet and have lunch together?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Did you leave Wilkinson, or did Wilkinson go away before you did, that first time?

A. I could not tell that--- I don't know.

Q. You don't remember about that?

A. No sir.

Q. Then you met at lunch in the evening about seven o'clock

A. Yes sir.

Q. Then it was that Wilkinson interrogatd him in regard to a mode of warfare?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Which you say he explained in general?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Did that explanation have reference to the city of Chicago---- was it so stated at the time?

A. He said reference in general.

Q. And Mr. Spies illustrated it by a couple of wooden toothpicks that he laid down on the table cloth?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You say that the reporter Mr. Wilkinson asked Mr. Spies whether he would give him the names and addresses of the Lehr und Wehr Verein, the armed section of the Lehr und Wehr Verein?

A, Yes sir.

Q, But that Mr. Spies replied that they did not keep the names?

A. Did not keep any names at all.

Q. It was open for anybody, and they went by numbers, and not by names?

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A. Yes sir.

Q. And therefore could not give him the names?

A. (No response)

Q. In those conversations when you were talking about mass meetings in furtherance of the eight hour movement, Mr% Spies was discussing the propriety, and was favoring the eight hour movement, as I understand?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Enthusiastically in favor of the eight hour movement?

A. Yes sir.

Q. As you all were?

A. Yes sir.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

MR. INGHAM. Q. You say Mr. Spies was discussing the propriety, and favoring the eight hour movement. Did Mr. Spies favor the eight hour movement?

Mr% ZIESLER. You mean in that conversation?

Mr% INGHAM. Did Mr. Spies favor the eight hour movement?

Mr. Zeisler. I object to the question in that form.

Mr. INGHAM. Q. Was Mr. Spies in favor of the eight hour movement?

THE COURT. What did he say about the eight hour movement in these conversations? You must confine your re-direct to the same subject and the same occasion as was mentioned in the question on the cross.

Mr. INGHAM. Q. How many concersations have you had with

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Mr. Spies about the eight hour movement?

Defendants counsel objected to the question as mimmaterial. The Court overruled the objection, to which ruling of the Court, defendants counsel then and there excepted.

A. For about six weeks I met him perhaps four times a week, because that was all the agitation we had, and he was not for it in the start, but afterwards he was for it and worked all he could for it, but not in the beginning.

q. You say he was not for it in the start----- what did he say about it?

Defendants counsel objected to the question, as not proper re-direct examination.

THE COURT. Yes, that is. You have got from this witness his statement--- you have got from this witness that he was enthusiastically in favor of the eight hour movement, the defendant, and they have a right to know from the witness what the defendant has said upon the subject.

Mr. Zeisler. In these conversations?

THE COURT. Not merely in this conversation, but in all conversations.

Defendants counsel then and there excepted to the ruling of the Court.

q. What did he say about the eight hour movement at the start?

A. At the start he said it did not amount to anything, and they could not get it anyhow, and that it would be a waste of time. But eventually----

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Q. What else did he say about it?

A. But eventually he favored it and worked for it, just the same as all others.

Q. Did he say anything more about why he was opposed to it in the conversation you had with him first?

A. His statement was this, at the first meeting--- he did not believe they would get it, and then it would not amount to anything anyhow, as he said it was only a palliative measure, and was not radical enough.

Q. What other conversations did you have with him about it?

A. As I recollect I brought him a list of the different labor organizations in Chicago, and was trying to pick out those which needed orgainization, and they did not organize them for instance, the packers, and a great many others were directly organized by these men for the eight hour movement.

Q. You were in constant consultation with him about organization?

A. Of those trades which had not been organized before.

Q. When was it he was converted to the advocacy of the eight hour movement?

A. I dont suppose he was converted, he was compelled to it.

Q. When was it that he was compelled to?

Mr% Zeisler. Those are conclusions.

The Witness. I am not giving you conclusions% I am giving you the facts as far as I can understand them% I am

88 85

telling anything else than what I know.

q. When was it he first said he was in favor of the eight hour movement?

A. I dont suppose he ever said that at all.

Q. He never said it?

A. I dont suppose so.

Q. How do you know that he was enthusiastically in favor of the eight hour movement, if he never was in favor of it?

A. I did not say that. I said he was not in favor of the the eight hour movement, it was of the eight hour mass meeting.

Q. You don't mean to say he was ever enthusiastically in favor of the eight hour movement?

A. Not that I know myself.

Q. But simply that he was enthusiastically in favor of the eight hour meeting?

A. Yes sir.

Q. That you talked Monday or Tuesday?

A. Monday before There had not been a general mass meeting until this meeting---- there were trade meetings, one trade and another trade.

Q. There never had been a general mass meeting?

A. Not at that time.

Q. When was the meeting held in the Armory --- was not there a mass meeting in the Armory some time before that, at which a number of representatives of different professions and classes of laboring men, all classes of men spoke?

89 86

A. Mr. Spies and these other genlemen.

Q. Dont you remember that meeting?

A. I remember that meeting very well.

Q. Was not that a mass meeting?

A. This-----

Q. Answer the question--- was not that a mass meeting?

A. It was a mass meeting representing the trades assemblies not the central Labor Union at all. That was a different crowd.

Q. The Central Labor Union was a socialistic organization?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Up to this time there had not been any mass meeting of the socialistic organizations in favor of the eight hour movement?

A. Yes, there was one in October, but that was a long time before.

Q. Where was the one in October held?

A. At West 12th Street, Turner Hall.

Q. Were you present?

A. I was not there.

Q. Then when you talk about a mass meeting of the labor party in favor of the eight hour movement at Haymarket Square, you are talking about a meeting in which the socialistic organizations should take part, were you?

Objected to as a conclusion.

THE COURT. If he and the defendant in their conversation with each other said anything about what kind of mass meeting

90 87

they were going to have, let him tell what they said.

MR% INGHAM. Q. State what ever was said in the conversation between you and Spies and the others present, about what kind of mass meeting should be held at Haymarket Square.

A. At that time we did not know where the meeting was to be held at all. It was only in consideration of their advisability of their holding a mass meeting on the eight hour movement, on the question of eight hours, a mass meeting in the open air, which of course would only be either on the Lake front or on Market Square, or on the Haymarket. There are only three or four places where you can hold it at all, but it meant a general mass meeting, without regard to the different sections of the labor movement.

Q. Was it intended or said that the socialistic organization should take part in it?

Mr% BLACK% I object to his stating what was intended. Let him state what was said.

THE WITNESS. At that time I am sure I saw Mr% Spies and Mr. Rau and Mr. Neebe almost every day, but I could not tell whether the meeting was agreed upon on Saturday or Monday, or night or day, but there was a general agreement about the necessity of having one general mass meeting in the open air, an eight hour mass meeting.

Q. You don't know whether that was Saturday or Monday?

A. I suppose it was Monday, but it was some time ago and

91 88

I could not tell that. It was not sure whether the meeting was to be in the forenoon or afternoon or night, but at last we came to the conclusion that it ought to be at night.

Mr. FOSTER. At the time they were discussing this, you never at any time spoke about having a meeting at the Haymarket Square?

A. I never heard that word until after that bomb was thrown -----never knew that place was called Haymarket at all.

Q. There was nothing said in these discussions as to whether it should be a socialistisc meeting, but that it should be a meeting in the interest of the eight hour movement?

A. It was to be a general meeting without regard to party%

Q. You say that Mr. Spies originally was not favorable to the eight hour movement, had his reasons for thinking that it would not do the labor movement any good?

A. That is it.

Q. At the time did he suggest that, as the hours were reduced, so would their pay be reduced by their employers?

A. That was the general-----

Q. That was the general discussion?

A. That was the general discussion.

Q. As a matter of fact this Arbeiter Zeitung paper is owned by seventy five different persons, is not it, or more stockholders or shareholders?

A. I could not tell you the number.

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Q. Mr. Spies was employed as you unde stand on a salary as Editor?

A. Yes sir.

Objected to as not proper examination.

Q. That is what you mean by saying that he was compelled to adopt the views of the eight hour system?

A. Yes sir.

Q. It was the voice of the men controlling the paper that that course should be adopted by the paper, and as editor he had to?

A. I understand he was paid so much a week, and he had to do what they wanted him to do.

Q. And they were favorable to the eight hours system?

A. He was not. That is my impression as far as I know.

JUROR REED. I would like to know whether Mr% Spies stated to Mr. Wilkinson at that meeting that anyone could join the Lehr und Wehr Verein?

A. It is my recollection that Mr. Spies said at that time that the military associations were open and free to everybody, that they meet, advertise their meetings, have picnics and advertise them, and in Halls, even on open ground in Sheffield, or out on the Prairie.

Mr. GRINNELL. Q. Do you remember him speaking of Sheffield?

A. I did not take enough interest in it to keep it in mind.

Q. I want know if anything was said in that conversation as to what they did in experiments at Sheffield or any place else in the country?

Objected to.

93 90

THE COURT. Q. Do you remember whether in the conversation with Wilkinson any reference to Market Square and Washington Street tunnel was made?

A. I can't remember now. There was so much talk that I did not have any interest keeping it in mind. I can't remember unless I would take great pains to refresh my memory.

Mr. FOSTER. Q. When was this interview with Wilkinson?

A. That was in the afternoon of the same day---- must have been the 10th of January--- I could not tell you the date.

Q. Was not talking about Haymarket then?

A. No sir.

Q. Now at the time you were meeting, at the time of this meeting at the Arbeiter Zeitung office, you as one of the parties interested in the labor movement, with others, was then discussing the propriety of calling this general meeting?

A. Calling a general mass meeting.

Q. You agreed there you would call a mass meeting?

A. That was the understanding, that there should be a general mass meeting in the open air.

Q. And you participated in that suggestion, that you have one?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Was it agreed there among you that it should be announced as an eight hour meeting, as a meeting favoring the eight hour movement?

A. There was nothing else considered at that time, except an eight hour meeting---- we did not think of anything else.

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Q. Was that to be stated in the circulars in the announcement, that it was to be an eight hour meeting, a meeting in the interest of the eight hour movement?

A. The Central Labor Union had a sort of agitation Committee that always looked to these announcements and these advertisements themselves.

Q. I know, so far as the announcement itself was concerned, but then was it talked there that the meeting should be in the interest of the eight hour movement---- was that the general talk?

A. There was nothing else considered except the eight hour movement.

Mr. GRINNELL. Q. At this meeting Monday or Tuesday that you had at the Arbeiter Zeitung office, with these men, was anything said by Spies or Parsons, or any of the parties that were with them, in regard to a meeting about, or an indignation meeting over the killing of the men at Mc. Cormicks ---- was that spoken of also in connection with the discussion of the proposed mass meeting%

A. That proposed mass meeting was to be an eight hour meeting, and an indignation meeting at the same time. They were not two different ideas, so far as I know. There was not time enough for two different classes of meetings.

Q. Where were you when you first heard that there had been some rioting down at Mc.Cormick's, and that anybody had been

95 92

killed, where did you get that information?

A. I got it from Spies. He told me that he had made a speech there, that he had just come back.

Q. In that conversation that you had with Wilkinson in the presence of Spies, do you remember Spies saying anything to you about exercising with arms, or with Dynamite at Sheffield, Indiana, or any place in the country?

Defendants counsel objected to the question as incompetent and immaterial. The Court overruled the objection; to which ruling of the Court counsel for the defendants then and there excepted.

A. I recollect that Spies stated that they drilled there, and that one man threw a bomb which entirely destroyed four big trees. That is as much as I recollect, as much as I know just at this moment. That is about all I can tell now.

Q. In that connection, at that time or any time prior to it did you hear any of these defendants advise as to the means or the force to be employed, as to whether it was pistols, guns or dynamite?

Objected to.

Q. And in that connection as to the cheapness of these things?

Objected to%

Recess to 2 P% M%

96 93

Court Re-assembled at 2 P.M.

JOSEPH GREUNHUT. Examination resumed by Mr. Grinnell

The last question was read by the Stenographer.

THE COURT. State the time and place. The word advice is wrong. If they said anything about those things, let him tell what they said.

Objected to on the grounds of its being direct examination.

THE COURT. That isproper. The examination of this witness had proceeded very irregularly. The examination in chief was very brief, very short. All that they wanted to ask should have been asked then, but there are circumstances that make it right, and in this instance, I think, make it right that strict regularity need not be enforced.

Defendants counsel excepted to the ruling of the Court.

THE WITNESS. I understand that arming meant, arming with-----

Objected to.

Mr% GRINNELL. Q. What did they say about it?

THE COURT. Q. What did you hear anyone say?

MR% BLACK. Q. And who said it.

THE WITNESS. I guess I could say that mr. Parsons and Mr. Spies during conversations which were carried on perhaps within the last twelve months, said-----

97 94

Objected to as not responsive to the question.

The COURT. Any time before.

THE WITNESS. Any time within the twelve months before the Bomb was thrown, that arming meant the use of dynamite bombs by individuals, so that each individual could take care of himself without respect to any combination of an armed organization. All men should individually self help as against a squad of policemen or a company of militia, etc. so that they need not be an army.

Q. In answer to Mr. Foster, you suggested or made an answer to a question in regard to Spies being responsible for the conduct of others, that is that others compelled him to comply with the eight hour movement.

A. What I meant was this, that he was the Business Manager and Editor-in-chief of that paper, and he was paid by a committee of the publishing society, and was under their general direction---- that is all I meant.

Q. That was the Internationalists?

A. I suppose the Socialistic Printing Company.

Mr% GRINNELL. That is all.

Mr. FOSTER. You say in this conversation Mr. Spies suggested, or it had been suggested sometime within a year that bombs should be thrown for individual defense?

A. Yes sir.

Q. But there was no combination or arrangement at all?

A. No combination.

98 95

Q. That is the poice had been in the habit of attacking meetings being held?

A. Yes sir.

Q. And clubbing etc.

A. (No response)

Q. I will ask you if you have a distinct recollection now, if Mr. Neebe was at the Arbeiter Zeitung office on either the Monday or Tuesday you were there?

A. No, I dont know whether it was Saturday, Monday or Tuesday, or whether I met him on the Street, or whether I met him up there. Before that I had given him a list of all the trades and occupations, and he had organized some of them, and others he had not, and I was trying to see him, going up there to find him.

Q. Have you a distinct recollection that he was there Monday evening, Could you say he was there Monday evening or not, or do you know----- would your memory permit you to say that he was there Monday evening?

A. I could not say whether I met him there, in the street or anywheres, but I think I met him two or three or four days before that happened.

Q. How is it as to Schwab, was he there?

A. I think I saw Schwab and Spies and Fricke.

Q. What day?

A. I think I saw them Monday or Tuesday

Q. Neebe was not in that crowd?

A. Neebe was not there.

Q. Monday or Tuesday you saw Schwab?

A. Monday or Tuesday.

99 96

Q. You said something this morning I believe about discussing the advisability of calling a mass meeting--- did you agree when that meeting was to be called?

A. As far as I recollect that mass meeting which we were talking about actually came to pass, and was up at the Haymarket.

Q. Did you agree there that it should be the Haymarket meeting, or are you talking now about what the result was, that it was in fact held at the Haymarket?

A. The talk was about the advisability, that was on Saturday and Monday, and before that, of having a general eight hour mass meeting for all people who would take an interest in that question, without regard------

Q. The question is then, it was not agreed upon that Monday night you were there, it was not agreed that it should be held the next night, Tuesday night, by you as a Committee.

A. We were not in Committee. It was a private talk.

Q. It was not agreed then with you that it should be Tuesday night, was it, that you remember?

A. There was not an agreement made any time. I do not know who eventually called the meeting.

Q. If you did not agree that it should be Tuesday night, it was not agreed that it should be an indignation meeting, as well as an eight hour meeting?

A. Now, these general mass meetings usually were called either by the Central Labor Union or by the Internationalists, whom I could not control very well% I could only talk to the committee

100 97

to help them%

Q. Did you ever agree that an indignation meeting should be held at any particukar night, Tuesday night?

A. I think I saw Balthazar Rau, who was on the Committee for the Internationalists, and he was in favor of a mass meeting, but I do not know who eventually dedided that mass meeting, and which Committee called it, I could not tell.

Q. Now then, Mr. Spies nor none of the defendants ever told you that we will have a meeting on Tuesday night, an eight hour meeting at the Haymarket, or an indignation meeting?

A. I had no conversation on that point with Mr. Spies.

Q. Just simply answer the question, Mr. Spies nor none of the other defendants never said that to you?

A. I had no conversation with them in regard to an indignation mass meeting at all.

Mr. FOSTER. Not at all, then that is all.

Mr. GRINNELL. Q. What did you talk about?

A. A general mass meeting.

Q. You did talk with Spies that night when you found him in the office, after the Mc.Cormick Riot, you did talk with him about the outrages perpetrated on the Mc.Cormick people there?

A. We did. He stated the facts to me.

Q. He said that six had been killed?

A. Yes he said six or more.

101 98

Q. Then in that connection was it not proposed that they should show their disapproval of the conduct of the Police sometime in the near future?

Mr. BLACK. Does your honor think that is competent?

THE COURT. If he means the general conduct of the police, it is right.

Mr. GRINNELL. The general conduct of the police in reference to these meetings the retofore held by Labor Movement or Internationalists, or the Central Labor Union.

THE WITNESS. In regard to those meetings, I would have asked men like Rau, Neebe and others.

Objected to what the witness would have done.

THE COURT. Q. What did you do?

A. Now, I am going to tell that.

THE COURT. Not what you would have done, but what you did. do.

A. I spoke in regard to that to Mr. Rau who was on the committee, on the agitation committee. I dont think I spoke about the indignation meeting to Spies at all, because he would have no power.

Mr. GRINNEll Q. What did Spies say that afternoon about it?

A. About calling a mass meeting?

Q. Calling any meeting, indignatiom meetingor any kind of meeting?

Objected to.

Q. Do you know Zeisler?

A. Yes I know him.

102 99

Q. You went out with him to Lunch?

A. I went out with him to lunch.

Q. And talked with him?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You have been with Neebe?

A. Met him on the street.

Q. Walked along with him and talked with him?

A. I did not talk with him on that question at all.

Q. Did you talk on the question as to whether or not he recognized you or you recognized him at any of those meetings,

Objected to.

A. I met him on the Stret with a saloon keeper, Miller, and we talked on that question.

Q. How long did you talk with him?

A. I did not talk with him privately----- anybody else could hear.

Q. How long did you talk with him?

A. About ten minutes

Q. How long did you talk with Zeisler?

A. We walked anout five blocks, and then we left him.

Mr% FOSTER. Q% Today you talked with Mr. Ingham and Mr. Grinnell?

A. Yes sir.

Testimony of F. H. Newman, 1886 July 26. 102 99

F% H% Newman, a witness called and sworn on behalf of the people, was examined in chief by Mr. Grinnell, and testified as follows:

Q. What is your name?

A. F% H% Newman%

103 100

Q. Are you a Physician?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Did you at the Hopital attend any of the wounded Officers, those wounded at the Haymarket Square May4th?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Look at that nut, and state if you extracted that from anybody? (Showing witness nut)

A. That was extracted under my direction at the time.

Q. From whom do you remember?

A. I don't remember his name--- it was a citizen.

Q. At what hour?

a. That I cannot state exactly, but it was towards morning.

Q. On the 5th?

A. On the 5th.

Q. Do you remember the mans hationality?

A. I think he was German.

Q. You gave that nut to Mr. Bonfield?

A. I did.

Q. Inspector Bonfield?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You may describe where it was taken from?

A. It was removed, the wound of entrance was about a half an inch from the rectum, passing diagonally into the gluteal region, about three inches or three inches and a half, and buried in the muscles of the gluteal region.

Q. Did you examine the other officers, how many did you examine that night?

A. I can't state the exact number, but somewhere from ten to twelve probably. I was there all night.

104 101

Q. Now, what did you find on your examination of the different officers?

A. How do you mean the question?

Q. I mean what kind of missiles or what kind of woulds?

A. I found some bullets, and some of them appeared to be fragments of metal, or a combination of metal, lighter than lead, and lighter than bullets.

Q. What was the size of the pieces?

A. They varied very much.

Q. Give me as far as your observation went, the extreme of the sizes you found and extracted?

A. They would vary from perhaps what we would call 22 calibre, or even less than that. The smallest piece I saw was less than that. 22 calibre up to 45.

Q. Were these pieces that you extracted regular in size?

A. No sir.

Q. They were irregular?

A. They were irregular in size

Q. How about the bullets? Did they vary in size?

A. Yes sir.

Q. That piece of metal you designate, not bullets, how did they vary?

A. They varied in the same way, some large and some small.

Q. Have you a piece there?

A. I have an envelope here which is sealed.

Q. Very well, open it. (Witness here opens envelope)

A. This is a piece, it looks like a piece of metal.

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Q. Do you remember who you took that from?

A. Officer Barber%

Q. Where?

A. In the heel.

Q. What kind of a wound did it make?

A. It made a ragged wound, and was buried in the bone, crushing the bone considerable, fracturing it into several pieces.

Q. What was done with the wound, was amputation necessary?

A, No sir% I removed the speculae from the bone, scraped it and made it as smooth as possible, and it healed by granulation.

Q. Did you examine the wounds of any of the officers who died?

A. I examined the wounds of one officer--- his name I don't recollect. He died within a few hours of coming into the hospital. He was wounded in the Liver.

Q. By what was that wound?

A. That I do n't know. It was a large ragged wound.

Q. Did you extract any of the pieces from it?

A. No sir, I simply examined it, as he was the patient of another surgeon.

Q. Was it a wound like that which would be produced by a bullet?

A. Yes sir, if the bullet was very ragged, spread out considerable, as they do sometimes.

Q. You don't know the name of the officer who died?

A. No I do not%

MR. GRINNELL. I offer this in evidence% (Iron Nut)

I will offer this in evidence too. (Piece of metal contained in envelope)

106 103

Cross Examination By Mr. Foster.

Q. Did you mark this piece of Iron?

A. No sir.

Q. All you know is it is what is commonly called a nut, about resembling that?

A. I examined it very carefully at the time, and I am poitive this is the same nut.

Q. You put no private mark on it?

A. No private mark, but there are certain dents and scratches on it that were there at the time that I removed it.

Q. Was that on the left side?

A. I am not positive whether it was on the left or right, but I think it was the left side.

Q. Now, this other, what was in the envelope there------ is that a bullet?

A. I do not think it is a bullet. It seems to be a piece of metal.

Q. You took that from a policeman?

A. I took that from a policeman's heel.

Q. You also treated some policemen that were wounded by Gun shots?

A. Yes sir, I had three under my care until they were cured. The night they came in I had several others, but I did not treat them until the end.

Q. Do you remember who they were?

A. Those that I carried through were Officers Barbour, Snell and Hennessy.

Q. You did not state that this nut was taken from an Officer

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A. No sir, it was taken from a citizen%

Mr% FOSTER. That is all%

Mr. GRINNELL. I offer this in evidence.

Testimony of Maxwell E. Dickson, 1886 July 26. 107 104

MAXWELL E% DICKSOn, a witness called and sworn on behalf of the people, was examined in chief by Mr. GRINELL, and testified as follows:

Q. What is your name?

A. Maxwell E. Dickson.

Q. You were formerly a newspaper reporter?

A. I was.

Q. You are not now employed in that business?

A. No sir.

Q. Do you know any of the defendants?

A. I know Mr. Spies, I know Mr. Parsons, I know Mr. Fielden and Mr. Schwab.

In fact I know a number of the others. I know Mr. Neebe. Those are all the gentlemen I have been introduced to.

Q. Do you remember of having any conversation with Parsons specially in reference to street warfare?

A. Not exactly in that way, no sir. I did have a number of conversations at different times with Mr. Parsons, that is they were personal conversations, in regard to the socialistic movement, and generally. Mr. Parsons had copies of the Alarm in his hands or some other papers having reference to this very movement. I remember the last time I met Mr. Parsons when he gave me a paper, I think he gave me two or thee papers, the last time I met him was either the latter part of last year

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or the commencement of this year, and in that paper there was either one or two diagrams, I won't be certain now.

Mr. BLACK. You need not state the contents of the paper

THE WITNESS. This paper represented a square, the formation-----

Mr. BLACk. Never mind.

Mr. GRINNELL.

Q. Look at that paper Mr. Dickson.

A. I would not swear that it was a copy of this paper, or some other, but it was a diagram similar to this paper here.

Q. The diagram that you did see in the paper was similar in character to the two diagrams you saw here?

A, One paper that he gave me at that time was of the date of that week, and this paper was with it.

Q. The paper that had the diagrams of the street warfare.

Mr. BLAck. Wait a minute.

Mr. GRINNELL. He says the paper was of the week he had the conversation.

A. Mr parsons gave the last publication. The conversation was entirely of a rather warm and friendly nature, but Mr. parsons handed me these papers. I thought nothing of it until I came to the office. I did not look at it at the time, except something Mr. Parsons specially pointed out to me in the last issue. When I went to the office I noticed in

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this other paper he gave me a plan of warfare. I looked it over and handed it to Mr. Magee, and threw it on the desk. That is all I know of that.

Q. Did you have any conversation with Parsons on that subject?

A. I had a conversation with Parsons on that subject% He did not open this at the time. Mr. Parsons stated to me as near as I can remember------

Mr. BLACK. Let this go in subject to objection as to the other defendants other than Parsons.

Mr. GRINNELL. Go ahead.

THE WITNESS. Mr. Parsons said to me that they had --- he stated that the social revolution would be brought in that way, the paper would describe, that is the description of this paper I did not pay much attention to it at the time, except when I got to the office I opened the paper to see that description.

Q. Was anything said in that conversation, or any other in regard to the social revolution, as to what forces it was to be brought against.

A. I met Mr. Parsons sometime during the past winter, in fact I think it was in November last.

It was either the day of that demonstration on the Market Square or later on, I think though it was later than that. I remarked to him in sort of a joking way, I says "You are not going to blow anybody up are you?" He said "You will see." I said "You don't mean you are going to use dynamite?" He said

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"I do not say that we wont. I don't know that we won't, but you will see the revolution brought about, and sooner than you think for." Well, we had several conversations somewhat of that tenor.

Q. Did you attend any meetings at which any of these defendants spoke?

A. I attended a number of meetings% I attended pretty much all of them up to within two years ago. Since a year ago i attended very few.

Q. Begin with the order of meetings you attended?

Mr. FOSTER. The time that Mr. Parsons was born, if you can.

THE WITNESS. I might go back to the Flood if you so desire.

Mr% GRINNELL. You have attended meetings at which you heard these people?

A. I attended meetings since 1875. I desire to ay that the last meeting I attended was the one on Market Square November last, and the ones previous to that was on January 11th 1885, one on January 18th 1885.

The one on January 11th was held in the West 12th Street Turner Hall, and the other in Mueller's Hall, corner Sedgewick and North Avenue., After that in the summer time I attended a number of meetings on the Lake Front. I kept no note of them because there was no reports made of them, and I paid no particular attention.

Q. State as near as you can what was said, take each individuals

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name, take the 12th Street Turner Hall meeting.

Objected to. Objection overruled and exception noted.

A. The 12th Street Turner Hall meeting was a meeting called for the purpose, as I remember it, of discussing the Socialistic Platform, or in other words, Socialism; and there had been a circular issued in which public men, clergymen and Lawyers and others who were interested in the socialistic quesytion, were invited to be present to discuss the question with the leaders of the social movement who would speak there. My recollection is that the Hall was very well crowded. There was not any standing room there scarcely, and that a gentleman named Griffin presided at the meeting, S% C% Griffin. I would like from these notes to refresh my memory.

MR% GRINNELL. Refresh your memory by reading them.

THE WITNES: (Continuing) Mr. Parsons, after Mr. Griffin had spoken, Mr. Parsons stepped forward and made a speech in which he said that the Editors of the Capitalistic press, Clergymen, Lawyers, Publicists, and Capitalists had been invited to discuss the questions there, and during his remarks he said that the degradation of labor was brought about by what was known as the rights of private poperty, and he there quoted some statistics, a long line of them, in which he showed that an average man with a Capital of $5000 a year, was enabled to make $4000 a year, and thus get rich, while his employe who made money for him obtained but $304 and there was upwards

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of two million heads of families who were in want, or who were bordering on want, and who were making their living either by theft, robbery, or any such occupation as they could get work in. And he said, that while they were champions of free speeech, and social order, it would be hard for the man who stood in the way of liberty, fraternity and equality to all.

Then at that time Mr. Griffin invited any outsiders who were present to speak, and called for the Reverend Mr. Green, who was not present. And Mr. Fielden was the next spokesman. And he, in his speech, in a general way, he said men were starving because of the over production.

Q. Do you mean that the Reverend gentleman spoke?

A. No the Reverend gentleman made no response, because he was not present.

Mr. BLACK. You are now giving what Mr. Fielden said?

A. Yes sir, then Fielden was introduced and spoke and said that the majority of men were starving because of over production, and the cause of that over production he figured out, showed that that ought not to be, and then went on to show that overcoats were being sent to Africa, to the Congo States to cover the nakedness there that was needed at home here, and he could not understand how that was. As a socialist he said that they believed in the equal rights of every man to live, but that the present condition of the laboring man was

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due to the domination of capital, and they could expect no remedy from the legislature or from the legislators, and that there were enough present in the Hall at that time to take Chicago from t e grasp of the Capitalists% Then others were again invited to come forward and speak, and them Mr. Fielden continued that Capital must divide with labor, that the time was coming when a contest would arise between Capital and labor, and socialism should be prepared for the result. He was no alarmist, but the contest would certainly come, and the socialist would be prepared for the victory when it did come.

Then after that there was an old gentleman named Taylor got up and made a speech. Then there were a number of others young men, tried to get up there and spoke, and there was a good deal of confusion created in the Hall, but Mr. Spies spoke in German, and somewhat in the tener of Mr. Fielden, and somewhat after the tenor of Mr. Parsons. His speech was simply a recapitulation, you might say, of all that had been said before; and he advised the workingmen to organize in order to obtain their rights, and that they might be prepared when the time came---- this is simply the substance of my recollection of the speech--- that they would be prepared for the emergency. Then there were resolutions adopted at that meeting, denouncing the capitalistic press, the editors and clergymen, and those who had refused to come for not coming to hear the truth spoken, and to discuss the question, etc. and the meeting

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adjourned%

Q. That is all.

A. Do you want anything of this other meeting at Muellers Hall?

THE COURT. Go on and give it.

Objected to and exception noted by defendants.

The WITNESS. At that meeting Mr. Fielden presided, and Mr. Griffin made a speech, in which he advocated the use of force to right social wrongs. Fielden presided at the meeting, and Griffin made the first speech in which he advocated the use of force to right social wrong; and there was a man named Lichtner who said he was in favor of socialistic ideas, underlying socialism, but opposed to the use of force.

Schwab in German said, that the gap between the rich and poor was growing wider; that although despotism in Russia had endeavored to crush Nihilism by executing some and sending others to Siberia, Nihilism was still growing. And he praised Reinsdorff, who had been recently executed in Europe, but stated that his death had been avenged by the killinf of Rumpf, the chief of Police of Frankfort, who had been industrious in endeavoring to crush out socialism; that murder was forced on may a man through the miserry brought on him by Capital; that such a thing as freedom in the United States was a farce or something to that effect, and that freedom in Illinois was literaally unknown; that both of the Political parties were corrupt, and what was nedded here was a bloody revolution which would

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right their wrongs. Then there was a man named Gorsuch---

q You understand German?

A Yes sir. Ich Spreche deutch.

q Schwab spoke in German?

A Yes sir% It was in the afternoon this meeting was held. Then there was a young man named Gorsuch. He was against all Government, because he believed in no government. That Government was made for slaves, and that the only way the working men could get their rights was by the Gatling Gun, by absolute barbaric force. He believed in the immediate use of brute force. Then Mr. Fielden called upon the capitalists to answer these arguments, and to save their property, for when they, the socialists decided to appropriate the property of the Capitalists, it would be too late for the capitalists to say anything. That was in English. Then Mr. Spies spoke in German at that meeting, and he advised the workingmen to revolt at once. He said that he had been accused of giving this advice before, and that it was true, and that he was proud of it.

Mr. BLACK. Q That is what Spies said%

A That is what Spies said. Mr. Spies spoke in German; he said that wage slavery could only be abolished through powder and ball.

He denounced the ballot as a sort of a skin game. He compared it to a deck of cards, in which there was a marked deck put in the place of the genuine, and in which the poor

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man got all the skin cards, so that when the dealer laid down the card his money was taken from him. Then Mr. Parsons spoke, and Spies offerred these resolutions, which were adopted----- if you care to hear these resolutions. They relate to the taking away of Mr. Rumpf.

Mr. GRINNELL. Let us have them.

THE WITNESS: "Whereas our comrades in Germany have slain one of the dirtiest dogs of his Majesty Lehmann, the greatest disgrace of the present time--- namely the spy Rumpf:

RESOLVED: that we rejoice over and applaud the noble and heroic act."

Then Mr. Parsons offerrd some resolutions in which the abolition of the present social system was advocated, and favored a new social co-operative system that would bring about an equality between capital and labor, as he argued. After that the meeting adjourned. Then the next meeting I attended was on the Market Square on Thanksgiving day, and Mr. Parsons, I think Mr. Spies presided at that meeting---- I am not so sure about that--- but at any rate Mr. Parsons made a speech there Thanksgiving day meeting, and Mr. Spies also I think spoke there, and I think Mrs. Parsons. In the speech there Mr. Parsons wanted to ask enquiringly, what they had to be thankful for, whether it was for their poverty, their lack of having sufficient food and clothing; etc, and also argued that the

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Capitalists on the Avenue spent more money at one meal for wine than some of them received for pay in a month; and I think, I wont be so sure, that Mr. Fielden also made a speech there in which he said that they would be justified in going over to Marshall Field over the way, and taking out from there that which belonged to them. There were a series of resolutions adopted there, denouncing the President, I believe they were offerred by Mr. Parsons, for having set apart Thanksgiving day; that it was a fallacy and a fraud; that the workingmen had nothing to be thankful for; that only a few obtained the riches that were produced, while the many had to starve. That is in substance the resolutons as I remember them.

CROSS EXAMINATION By Mr. Black.

Q Thanksgiving day of what year?

A. This last meeting was 1885.

MR. SALOMON. I move to exclude the evidence given by this witness%

The Court overruled this motion, to which ruling of the Court Counsel for the Defendants then and there excepted.

MR% BLACK. You have spoken of a conversation you had with parsons in which he stated to you that the social revolution was coming sooner than you would expect.

A Yes, he said to me more than once, I think I will remember that%

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Q Did he ever state to you what he meant by the expression, social revolution, or the social revolution?

A. Well, I can't say exactly that he did. What he did say to me, Capt. Black, was this: That when the social revolution came, it would be better for all men; that it would place every man on an equality. He pictured me personally as a wage slave, just as much under the control of the capitalist as the laborer who was working with the anvil.

q Referring to your position as a Newspaper Reporter?

A Yes sir, at the time% And then he said that all reforms had to be brought about through revolutions, and that bloodshed could not be avoided. I did not put that at any particular date, because those were frequently the statements he would make to me.

Q These were the discussions that Mr. Parsons had with you, or that you had between you in reference to this theme which you understood was Parsons Hobby, were not they?

A I cannot say that they were discussions. I was frequently with Mr. Parsons, and in fact with all these people-- we used to meet every day, and would talk about what they were doing.

Q That is what I mean by discussions---- I don't mean necessarilly disputes.

A No, I never had any disputes with with any of these people.

Q They were conversations in which in a friendly way, the

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social and industrial outlook of the Country was talked over, and in which Parsons was in the habit of taking the pessimistic view that revolution was inevitable, and that revolution came in the way of bloodshed.

A Yes sir, and then also he would frequently insist that any method would be justifiable so that it was brought about.

Q Any method he considered would be a proper method to accomplish this revolution?

A. Yes sir.

Q. When it came?

A. Yes, sir.

Q That is to say, to accomplish the object which he advocated as the intended result of the social revolution?

A Certainly% I also asked him if they intended to use dynamite.

Q Can you tell any conversation in which you asked him that question, any particular conversation?

A I think I asked it in July or June last, that he and I had a conversation of that character.

Q Where was that conversation, if you remember?

A Well it was in the vicinity of the Times office.

Q. On the street?

A. I think it was near the office - I would be too sure.

Q. On the street?

A It was on Fifth Avenue between Madison amd Washington Streets.

Q What I mean is, it was on the street?

A Yes sir.

Q That you met and talked with him

A Wherever we met we talked about it

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Q. In that conversation you asked him if he proposed to use dynamite?

A I did.

Qn What was his response to that?

A His response was that if it became necessary, that they would use it--that at was exactly his response, and it might become necessary.

qQ Might become necessary?

A Yes sir.

Q There was not in that conversation nor in any conversation you ever had with him, any distinct declaration of any proposal on his part, or the part of those associated with him to inaugurate the revolution at any particular time, or by any particular means, or the use of any particular force?

A No sir, he never said to me that they would inaugurate the revolution at any pqrticular time but he said to me very frequently that they would bring on the revolution,

Q But never mentioned as to the time?

A. No sir.

Q Simply spoke of it as the inevitable future?

A Yes sir, he said it was bound to come, and come sooner than expected.

Q You have heard a great many people express substantially the same idea, I suppose?

Objected to. Objection sustained.

Exeption taken by Defendants.

Q You say on one occasion Parsons showed you a copy of the Alarm, or was that on two different occasions?

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A Let me understand% When I made that remark--- Mr Parsons I met frequently, as you understand% Whenever I met him if he had a new edition of the paper in his pocket, he handed me the paper, and asked me to look at it. At this time he handed me the 1 st edition of the paper, and I think he remembers it himself, and also a paper, I would not swear particularly that it was the Alarm that he gave me, but it was a copy of the paper that had this plan of street warfare in it.

Q You do not know whether it was a copy of the Alarm or a copy of some other paper?

A I would not like to swear it was the Alarm.

Q Do you remember what he said as to the authorship of that article?

A He did not make any remark as to the authorship. He did not show me the article at all.

Q Did not he in that conversation tell you in effect that you would find in that paper an article, that it was an article by an officer of the United States Army, contributed to the San Francisco Truth, and republished in the Alarm?

A I could not say as to that, Captain, for I do not recollect whether he said that to me%

Q Did you subsequently examine the article?

A. Yes sir, I read thr article.

Q Did you find that it wa an article ori inally contributed by an Officer of the United States Army or Navy to the San

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Francisco Truth, and republished in the Alarm?

A. I have not looked over the paper, I have seen that Paper that Mr. Grinnell handed me, but I have not looked at it since that afternoon.

Q You have not a distinct recollection now?

A. No Sir. I would not swear to that, but he handed me the paper I know that had been published some time previous, and called my attention to that article as showing what could be done.

Q. What was the date of this meeting at West 12th Street Turner Hall, that you have spoken of?

A That was January 11th.

Q. Of this past year?

A. Of 1885, yes.

Q. How did your attention come to be called to that meeting, January 1885?

A. I will tell you, I was sent there as a reporter.

Q From the Times?

A Yes sir.

Q. You were connected with the Times at that time?

A. Yes.

Q You were there to report that meeting?

A Yes sir, i was%

Q Do you know whether or not there was a general notice of that meeting published?

A It was a public meeting.

QA And you found the Hall full?

A It was absolutely packed, There was no standing room there scarcely.

Q A public discussion of the questions that were under

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consideration were invited there, was it not?

A A It was by a circular that I came to go there. The city editor handed me a circular, and told me to go and see what the meeting did, and to make a report of it.

Q You have stated in the course of the proceedings, of the meeting, persons were called upon by name to take part in the discussions, and they were not present?

A. Yes Sir.

Q Let me call your attention before passing finally from this question to this paper, which purports to be a copy of the Alarm, under date of July 25th 1885. I will ask you whether you recognize that as a copy of the Alarm?

A I recognize this as a copy of the Alarn. Yes.

Q Let me call your attention to an article on the third page there, under the title of "Street Fighting, how to meet the enemy. Some palpable hints for the revolutiobary soldier% What an officer of the U% S% Army has to Say." I will ask whether or not that is the article to which your attention was called by Mr. Parsons?

A To the best of my recollection it is, but if you ask me to swear positively whether it is or not, I would not like to.

Q Your bst recollection would be that is the article?

A Yes sir, so far as my memory serves me. I have had lots of copies of the Alarm.

Q. Do you remember whether or not the article to which your attention was called, and that you did read, and which I

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understand contained substantially the same diagram you recognize here?

A Yes, these diagrams I am positive of.

Q I will ask you whether that article, according to your recollection, commences in substance as follows:-

"The following letter was published some time ago in the San Francisco Truth, and will no doubt be read by friends of the Alarm with great interest" Do you remember that introductory sentence?

A I remember an introductory sentence to it, but I pledge my word outside of that, I did not pay enough attention to it% I read the article over and I handed the paper to Mr. Magee, City Editor who was in the office at the time, and I called his attention to it. And I said, "Look at that." And he looked at it.

Q You paid no further special attention to the subject?

A. No sir, I did not.

Q. You have given substantially, by the aid of your notes, your recollection as to what transpired at the 12th Street Turner Hall Meeting?

A. Yes sir.

Q Was there anything else occurred in one of the speeches there, that impressed itself on your recollection, so that you can detail it now outside of your notes?

A No I cannot say that there is, except, that after this Dr. Taylor had spoken, that Mr. Griffin invited others to speeak, and that some beardless youth, a young man stepped up there and tried to speak. He said that he was no socialist, and

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and that any man who was not too lazy to work could work, and find work to do; that there was no necessity for having Tramps and so on; that if a man was willing to work, there was no necessity for being a Tramp. This is from recollection of course, and he was hooted down, and there was a good deal of excitement and noise in the Hall. Mr. Spies got up in one corner of the meeting, of the stage, and asked them to be quiet, and to give every man a chance to be heard; that they wanted to hear from the other side; that if he was a capitalist it was all right. By the way, this young man said Capitalists would control labor anyway, or some words to that effect% After he got through somebody else got up to speak, and he had the appearance of being a Hebrew, and some of the crowd commenced to cry "Yut Jew" and another young man got up.

Mr% GRINNELL. What is the use of going over that?

MR% BLAVK. Let him go on. What else?

THE WITNESS. This otherman got up there and said that Karl Marx and La Salle were Jews, and so on, and that some of the leading socialists had been Jews. I do not know who that was now. Everything was confusion in the Hall at that time.

Q How long did that meeting last? Do you remember?

A% I should say three hours.

Q Was it in that meeting that Spies made the remark about

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the skin game, or was that at the Mueller Hall meeting?

A. No, I think that was the Mueller Hall meeting.

Q. You have given us as I understand now, substantially all that occurred at the 12th Street Turner Hall meeting, that you remember?

A There was more in a general way, there was a good deal more said.

Q All that impressed itself upon your recollection?

A Yo see, Captain, that I had been attending these meetings regularly up to that time, pretty regularly, and had got acquainted with these people people, and as a m tter of fact I didn't take much notice of what was going on, because they were generally one a repetition of the other.

Q You were perfectly familiar with that strain of talking? It was talk that you were perfectly familiar with?

A Ye sir.

Q Through how long a period of time?

A. Say from the fall of 1875.

Q Those were orderly meetings held in the city of Chicago right along?

A They were all orderly, some more disorderly than others, but the meetings themselves as generally conducted were always certainly peaceable, except the men got excited sometimes and obstreporous% Sometimes they might suggest the hanging of a reporter, or of a newspaper editor.

Q Did that ever happen at other meetings?

A Yes sir, that happened at Mc. Cormick's Hall, they started to throw us out of the window.

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Q. You reporters have to take life in your hands sometimes?

A Not always.

Q Sometimes?

A Sometimes, yes sir.

Q Let us come to th mueller' Hall meeting. Fielden you say presided at that meeting---- am I correct as to that?

A Yes sir, that is it. He presided.

Q You repeated something that Fielden said with reference to the capitalists, substantially, that they should speak them, or for ever hold their peace, as they would not have a chance after the revolution came. What was Fielden's manner when he made that remark?

A Fielden's manner when he got on the stage always was very exciteable. Fielden was about as hot as any man could get on the stage, and speak.

Q His remarks, as you have quoted them here, were, that if there were any capitalists that wanted to speak, they would have the opportunity, and they better avail themselves of it, because after the revolution came they would not have the chance.

A That was about it.

Q In other words, if they wanted to keep their property, they better take the chance.

A His manner was suggestive, as if he wanted to bring that idea, that the revolut on was coming pretty soon--- that his manner would indicate.

q You have recited what he stated there in substance?

A I think it is almost verbatim

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Q Can you recollect substantially, the German of what he said?

A No, that would be hard for me to do---- that is in substance. I was sitting there and reporting, and translating as he went along. I think before I went away from that meeting I refferred to him in regard to one or two of his remarks, whether I had him correct, and he said "Substantially correct."

Q His position in his talk, as you remember substantially was, that it was a game of Cards, where the cards were set against the poor man

A That is just about the substance of it.

Q That was the present condition of the present social order?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you remember having an interview with Mr. Parsons the day after the Mueller Hall meeting, on the street, near the city Hall, in reference to your report, or rather the report of that meeting which had been published that morning in the Times?

A Yes do recollect. I don't know whether it was the day after.

Q Very shortly after?

A It was within a few days aftter.

Q Do you remember whether or not Mr. Parsons took you to task a little, or remonstrated with you, claiming that in the report of Spies speech you had done him injustice, and said you ought not to do that?

A I don't think that he,

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did, though he may have for ought I know, because it is not a new thing for a man to be hauled over the coals for what he writes.

Q Especially when he has attempted to write an abstract of what somebody else says?

A That is it exactly. My recollection is that Mr. Parsons, after that meeting, or some other, told me that he had used mainly my report for his paper --- I think that was the meeting.

Q As to that particular meeting, particularly in what you had reported him as saying that he advocated revolt--- did he not call your attention to the fact that you had done Spies an injustice in the report you made of his speech.

a No sir, I do not recollect that. I think he made some criticism of it. He made sme criticism about somebody's address, that I had inadvertently done somebody----did not report him correctly. I think it was Spies, because Spies had hauled me over the coals for re-publishing the report, that is my report of it, now when I come to think of it.

Q The claim was that you had not correctly reported Spies' speech at that time?

A Yes, but what the incorrect part was I can't remember. I remember that part very distinctly.

Q Who was it, Mr% Dickson, that in any of these meetings yo have described, spoke of the need in Illinois, of a revolution?

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A. I did not say that. Mr. Schwab, I think, said there was no freedom in the United States, and more especially in Illinois--- that is the substance of it.

Q Do you remember any of them, in the course of any of these meetings, speaking in reference to the Industrial condition, and saying in effect, that what was needed in Illinois was a bloody revolution, or anything to that effect?

A I could not say that I ever heard any man say that, no sir, never said that in that way.

Q Didn't use that expression?

A No sir, not in meetimgs that I attended within the last two years.

Q Whenever the matter of revolution was talked of in any of these meetings, by any of these defendants, was it not in effeect this, that the speaker took the position that the industrial conditions now existing in society were tending to certain, and rapidly towards revolution as the sole and only relief to the industrial classes---- answer yes or no to that if you can?

A I will tell you, Captain Black, and without injustice either to you or the gentle en there, there was never anything of that kind put in that way at all--- the speakers generally --- I am speaking of any of the meetings--- the speakers generally advocated revolution.

Q When you say advocated revolution, you mean advocated the social revolution, that is, a change i social conditions%

A I will tell you---- of course I could go back and name on other men, and even some of the gentlemen here who have directly advocated the use of force and dynamite% There

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men spoke before these men in years gone by who were far more bloodthirsty%

Q I am not speaking of bloodthirsty men of long ago%

Your attention has been called to various meetings that have occurred since January 1885. Confine your attention to that period of time. Has not the position of the parties been substantially what I have indicated, and in their attack, they have spoken of the industrial conditions, and have predicted revolutions as the sole outcome of the industrial classes.

A Yes sir, and also advocated that same revolution, and that the working men should bring it about.

Q Can you give us the language of any one man that has stated that, an tell us when he stated it, and who it was that he stated it to%

A I will tell you, you know that these two meetings I have reference to were of a very peculiar character.

Q I aint asking you that?

A I am answering your question.

Q Can you tell me the time, the place, the person, and what was said in advocacy of revolution?

A Well, I have heard so many remarks.

Q Never mind about having heard so many remarks%

A I can't answer it by saying yes, and I can't answer it by saying

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no, because -----

Q Hold on.

THE COURT. That last question don't call for yes or no. It calls for time, place, and person, and any words advocating bloody revolution.

(The Stenographer here read the question)

THE COURT. Have you anything in your notes by which you can fix the time, place, and person, and the words?

MR% SALOMON. That question is answered by Yes or no.

THE WITNESS. I can't fix the time, but I can fix the place; on the Lake Front, in some of these meetings.

THE COURT: Literally that calls the witness to say yes or no, but the common understanding of the question "Can you tell me" means tell me if you can. Literally it can be answered yes or no.

THE WITNESS: It would be unjust to me to answer it yes or no.

Mr% BLACK. Q. The place you fix as being at the Lake Front meeting?

A Yes.

Q Now, the person?

A I want to qualify that% You asked me of course to go back. You understand, Captain Black that I did not take any notes of these meetings. Mr Fielden-

Q It seems when you did take notes and produced them here, those notes did not cover the ground which you now upon your examination attemp to cover.

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MR. GRINNELL: I confined myself to his notes.

MR% BLACK. I would not have been where I was if the Witness had confined himself to answer the question.

THE WITNESS: I don't want to volunteer anything.

MR% GRINNELL: Let him give them all, all the Lke Front meetings for the last five years.

Mr. BLACK. I know how to conduct this examination.

Q Fielden?

A I say this, Mr Fielden and Mr. Dusey, a man named Dusey.

Q Dusey is not one of the Defendants%

A Mr. Fielden at the Lake Front meetings, at meetings--- I will not fix the date because I wandered down there and met Parsons there, met Spies there---- I wandered down there-- Mr. Fielden advised the working men----

Q You have given me now the name of the person and place; Lake Front and Fielden---- what did he say? I want his language.

A I cannot give you the identical language.

Q Can you give the substance of his language on any particular occasion that you remember, not your general gleanings of your reportorial imaginations over a period of years, but sometime when he said something which impressed irdelf on your recollection, which you substantally can reproduce.

A The gleanings of my imagination are very scant at this late day%

q We will discuss that at some other time. I want your

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recollection of something that impressed itself upon your memory, if you can reproduce it in substance.

A Simply This --- Mr. Fielden did at the Lake Front there advise the men to go forward there and and get that which did belong to them and to do it by force. That was at the Lke Front.

Q When was the last time that you ever heard Fielden advise anything of that sort?

A I did not say that I heard him a dozen tims say that, but the last time I heard him say that.

Q In your last answer before this you have given as closely as you can, the substance of Fielden's advocacy of force?

A Mr. Fielden, when he started to speak would go through--

Q Mr. Dickson, that question can be answered yes, or no.

A I understand that, but you can't put a witness in the position that he is equivocated, and I do not propose to be put in that position.

Q You be careful on your side, and I will try to.

A I don't want to. I want to be candid with you.

Q The question I put to you is this: Have you given approximately the substance of Fielden's advocacy upon the subject referred to?

A Yes sir, in substance as far as that is concerned, the advocacy of force.

Q Now, hold on a minute. I did not ask you if the advocacy was force. I asked you if you had already given---I did not ask you to repeat it, but I will ask you once more,

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in your previous answr, not this last one, have you given approximately, and as closely as you could the substance of Foelden's advocacy of the subject under consideration?

A As far as I can%

Q Is your answer "as far as I can"

A. As far as I can recollect, certainly.

Mr. BLACK. That will do% We will stop right here.

Testimony of Paul Hull, 1886 July 26. 135 132

PAUL C? HULL, a witness called and sworn on behalf of the people, was examined in chief by Mr. Grinnell, and testified as follows:

Q What is your name?

A Paul C% Hull.

Q You are a newspaper reporter?

A Yes sir.

Q On what paper?

A The Daily News.

Q Were you employed on that paper on May last?

A Yes sir.

Q Were you at the Haymarket at that riot?

A I was.

Q What time did you get there?

A I got there shortly before eight o'clock in the evening.

Q Do you know who opened the meeting?

A Yes sir.

Q Who?

A Mr. Spies.

Q Did he speak?

A He did.

Q Who followed him?

A Mr Parsons.

Q How ling did Spies speak?

A Well, I should judge

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fifteen minutes perhaps.

Q How lkng did Parsons speak?

A In the neighborhood of an hour.

Q Did you hear Fielden?

A I heard most of Fielden's speech, yes sir, or part of it.

Q How long did he speak?

A Probably half an hour--- that is only approximately.

Q How much of Spies' speech did you hear?

A I heard the latter part of it.

Q How much of Parsons?

A All of it.

Q How much of Fielden's?

A The first part of it.

Q Were you present when the police marched down the stret?

A I was.

Q Where were you?

A At the time the police left the Station, I was at the Station, having left the crowd a moment before.

Q Where had you been before?

A Before I had been in the crowd, around the outskirts of the crowd up an iron stairway that run up on the outside of the building on the Northwest corner of Randolph and Despliaines Street.

Q Who was there with you?

A Another reporter, I forget his name, and a couple of men that I don't know.

Q Did you go to the Station occasionally?

A. Once only after the meeting began.

Q Whom did you see at the Station, whom did you talk with?

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A I talked with several people, Mayor Harris on amongst the rrst.

Q Did you march out with the Police when they came out?

A I ran ahead of the police% I got down to the Station as the Police filed into Dessplaines St, marching North% I ran ahead of them, and took my former position on the iron stairway.

Q Here is Desplaines Street Station (pointing on Diagram)

A Yes sir.

Q Here is Zepf's Hall?

A I don't know.

q The corner of Lake, you did not get down as far as that?

A I did not.

Q Where is the Stairway, right at the north-west corner of Randolph and Desplaines?

A Yes sir.

Q You were standing there? Yes sir.

Q Where was the wagon from which the speakers stood and addrsssed the meeting?

A It was east and north.

Q North of the Alley, in the vicinity of the alley?

A Yes.

Q How far would you say that wagon was from the Alley?, from which they spoke?

A About ten or fifteen feet.

Q How high up is that staurway?

A About ten or fifteen feet.

Q How high up is that stairway?

A. Oh, well, perhaps it goes up to the second Story, perhaps fifteen feet.

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Q Did you see the po ice marching down?

A I did, yes sir.

Q How were they armed?

A I could not judge from looking at them how they were armed. I know they were armed with revolvers and clubs.

Q Did they have their hands full of Clubs?

A. No sir, they marched in the regular military fashion of the police with their hands, I belive, free, both of them, both hands free hanging by their sides.

Q Were you close enough to hear Capt% Ward addrsss the speakers on the wagon?

A Yes.

Q What did you hear him say?

A I heard him say in substance "I command you in the name of the People of the State of Illinois to disperse."

Q Did you hear any response from anybody?

A I did not.

Q Did you, prior to hearing Ward address the speakers, see any of the speakers in the wagon?

A I did.

Q Whom?

A Fielden was the only man that I could be sure of. I had left the meeting and gone to meet the Police, When I came back I know Fielden was in that Wagon, because I heard his voice.

Q When the Bomb was exploded, where were you%

A I was on this iron stairway, about four steps from the landing.

Q. That is the top landing?

A Yes.

Q At the time the bomb exploded had there been any firing?

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A yes sir.

Q After the bomb exploded, did the firing begin?

A Yes sir it did.

Q From whom?

A From the crowd.

Q Before the police fired?

A Before the police fired.

Q Did you see the bomb in the air?

A I did.

q Did you see from what place it came?

A I could only form an opin on from when ce it came by the manner in which it flew.

Q Where, in your opinion, from seeing it fall, seeing it in the air, about where did it come from in reference to Crane's Alley?

Objected to.

THE COURT. Where was it when he first saw it, and in what direction was it then moving?

A I stood upon this Northwest corner of the stairway. My head was probably within twelve or fifteen feet above the crowd. It was quite dark. I faced this way (Indicating) In that direction was the speakers wagon. A little to this direction w s the corner of Randolph and Desplaines---- this corner being further North than that corner. Directly opposite me was a pile of boxes on the sidewalk, and an area way surrounded by a iron railing. My eyes were directed towards the speakers wagon in this direction, where Capt% Ward was speaking. As the words were in his mouth, I saw arching through the air, and it attracted my attention, because it come on a line of my vision--- the sparks of the burning fuse.

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It then seemed to fly in this direction, which would make it come, according to my recollection of it, from about fifteen or twenty feet south of the Alley, it apparently falling in this direction (illustrating) flying over the third division of the po ice and falling between the second and third

Q What was the effect upon the police of the explosion of that bomb?

A It seemed to level to the ground the second and third divisions of police. My eye followed the spark of the bomb as it fell to the ground. I did not see the great body of the police, except the two columns which bounded either side of the bomb. It seem d to throw them all to the ground. At almost the same instant there was a ratt ling of shot which came from both sides of the street, and which did not cme from the police.

Q Were you in and out of that crowd during that evening, from the time Spies began his remarks until the time the bomb was thrown?

A Yes sir.

Q What was the nature and condition of that crowd as to whether it was a feverish one or one that was cool and collected?

Objected to on the ground that it is asking for a conclusion, and that it is essentially leading%

THE COURT: Whether particular individuals are angry or excited or calm is always admissible%

MR% SALOMON: The State's Attorney can ask him what

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was the condition of the crowd.

THE COURT: That would be just as well, to ask what was the apparent temper or dispoition of the crowd% There are so many things about what a condition can be predicated, as to whether they were drunk or sober, whether they were excited or calm--- you ought to specify the particular quality upon which you want him to state the condition of the crowd.

THE WITNESS: I would call it a noisy, turbule meeting.

Defendants Counsel moved the exclusion of the answer. Overruled and exception taken.

MR% GRINNELL: Q How large a crowd was that when the speaking began, in your opinion?

A I should judge between eight hundred and a thousand people.

Q How many were there when the police came up?

A Not so may, perhaps it had dwindled away a third from what it was at its largest number.

Q How about the condition and temperament of that crowd as to those that were near the wagon, and those on the outskirts of the crowd?

A There seemed to me to be a quarter of the crowd, that part that clustered about the wagon, who were the enthusiasts of the occasion, who loudly applauded the speakers, and cheered them on by remarks. The outskirts of the crowd appeared to regard the speakers with indifference, and often guyed the speakers, laughed at them and hooted them%

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Q What was said, give me as near as you can in your own way Spies' words that you heard him utter--- the substance of it.

A Mr. Spies told his version of the Mc.Cormick riots, which, as I remember was, that he had been charged, he said, with being responsible for the riot and for the death of these men% He said, I believe he said Mr. Mc.Cormick charged him with it, or else somebody had said that Mc.Cormick had charged him with it. He said Mr. Mc.Cormick was a liar; that he (Mc.Cormick) was responsible for the death of our brothers, the six men which he claimed were killed at that riot; that he had addrssed a meetimg on the prairie, a meeting of his countrymen, I believe he characterized them, and when the bell of the Factory rung, or at some point in the afternoon, a body of the meeting which he was addrs sing detached themselves and went towards the Factory, and that there the riot occurred.

That was in explanation of his connection with it. He then touched upon the dominating question of labor and Capital and their relations very briefly, and asked what meant this array of Gatling Guns, Infantry ready to arm, Patrol Wagons and Policemen. And my recollection is that he drew the deduction from that, that it was the government or the capitalists preparing to crush them, should they try to right their wrongs. That was the substance of his address.

Q Did he say anything in his speech about the means to be

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employed against the capitalistic force?

A I don't remember that he did on that occasion. No sir.

Q. How much of Parsons speech did you hear?

A. I heard all of it.

Q Tell us as near as you can what Parsons said.

A He dealt considerably in Labor Statistics in the first part of his speech. He followed the making of a Dollar---- not the minting of it but the earing of it. I believe he drew the conclusion that the capitalists got 85 cents out of the Dollar, and the laboring man fifteen cents. He said that this uprising of the working men, this eight hour agitation, and the agitation of the social question, was a still hunt of the working man after this other 85 cents. He also dealt with the social question, the question of socialism, of capital and labor, and he advised the using of violent means by the working men to right their wrongs; that the law and the government was the the tool of the wealthy to oppress the poor that the ballot was no way to right their wrongs, that by physocal force was the only way in which they could right their wrongs. That was the tenor of his speech.

Q You say y u only heard a part of what Fielden said?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you remember the part that you heard?

A I belive what I heard of Mr. Fielden's speech was sort of a criticism on

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the course of Martin Foran in Congress. He said he had been sent there to represent the Labor party, and that he did not do it satisfactory to Mr. Fielden's opinion.

Q That is the substance of all that you heard of Fielden's speech?

A. Yes sir.

Q Now what was the efect of these speeches severally upon that crowd surroubding them?

Objected as to what the ef ect was.

THE COURT: What was the manner of the crowd on the reception or receiving of the speeches?

A That portion of the crowd around the speakers wagon was turbulent and noisy, as regards breaking in on the sp akers with exclamations of "Hang him" when Mc.Cormick, for instance, his name was mentioned, or "Throw him into the Lake", "Hang him to a lamp post" --- some such remark would be made when any prominent Chicago capitalists name would be used.

Q Do you remember any expression by the crowd when any of these speakers, Fielden, Parsons or Spies asked them "Are you ready new?"

Objected to as leading.

THE COURT: If there was anything said upon that subject of the readiness of anybody for anything, let him tell what the speaker said.

THE WITNes: There was one of the speakers, which one I don't remeber, nor exactly what man's name was mentioned which brought it up. This part of the scene however, I re-

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remember. Some one in the crowd cried "Let's hang him now" when some man's name was mentioned, and one of the speakers, Mr. Spies I believe or Mr. Parsons, one of the two, said, "No, we are not ready yet."

CROSS EXAMINATION by Mr. FOSTER.

Q Did you write the account that was published in the News the next morning?

A. Part of it, yes.

Q Did you write that part of it which described the throwing of the bomb, and what followed immediately?

A. Yes sir.

Q It was correct as you wrote it?

A. It was according to my impression of it at that time.

Q Your impression is not any better now than it was then?

A A good deal.

Q It has improved?

A. Decidedly so.

Q What has improved it, conversation with others?

A. No sir, simply recollection of facts.

Q Second sight?

A. Not at all, sir--- I did not say second sight.

Q It was not second sight?

A. No sir.

Q At the time you wrote the article in the News you were not as well advised of what occurred there as you are now?

A I was as well advised, yes sir.

Q But you did not state it as correctly as you state it now?

A. No sir my recollection was not clear at that time.

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Q Were you affected by the explosion of the bomb somewhat?

A. A little, yes sir.

Q As a matter of fact when the bomb exploded, it exploded pretty near that stairway?

A. About thirty or forty feet from where I was.

Q Were you stunned by it?

A. No sir.

Q You didn't fall down or anything of that kind?

A Not at that instant.

Q Did you soon after?

A. I did, yes sir.

Q As the result of the explosion or from carelessness?

A No sir, as the result of a man being shot in front of me, and I fell over him.

Q The explosion of the bomb for the moment startled you and shocked you to some extent?

A No sir; I understood what it was---it was the firing of the revolvers that started me. I considered my position dangerous and tried to get around the corner.

Q I understood you to say, when I asked you whether you were affected by the explosion of the bomb, you said you were some.

A. The results of it affected me somewhat.

Q Not the bomb itself immediately?

A No dir.

Q How long has it been since you had been talking with Mayor Harrison?

A When the bomb exploded?

Q Yes sir.

A I believe I talked with the Mayor before the meeting convened.

Q Did you talk with him afterwards there?

A No sir.

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Q Do you know how long he stayed there?

A No, I do not.

Q How did the meeting compare as to turbulence, as you express it, after the portion of them went away, as to what it had been before the time they went away?

A I can't make any distinction hardly.

Q You don't know that it was less turbulent after they went away, or what is your judgment about that?

A I think it was about the same--if there was any difference either way, it was very slight.

Q But you noticed no perceptible difference then from the beginning of the meeting until after they got enthused?

A Yes sir, they grew warmer and more turbulent as the meeting proceeded.

Q Now, you say they did?

A Yes sir.

Q You said a moment before that you did not notice any perceptible difference in the turbulence after a portion of the audience withdrew, from what it had been before?

A I know a portion of the audience withdrew a very few moments before the explosion of the bomb.

Q How many moments before?

A I don't know.

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Q At that time there was a threatening cloud come up?

A A threatening cloud came up, yes sir, and Mr Spies said the meeting would adjourn to 54 West Lake Street, I believe. About that time or shortly after that time the police appeared--I believe it was a very short time from the time Mr. Spies said the meeting would adjourn to 54 West Lake Street until the police came up and the meeting was dispersed.

Q Did Mr. Spies say that or Mr. Parsons say it?

A I think Mr. Spies said it.

Q Were you here this forenoon?

A No sir.

Q Do you know Mr. Freeman the Inter Ocean reporter?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you see him there that night?

A I don't believe I did.

Q Were you at any time during the meeting as near as eight or ten feet from the speaker?

A No sir.

Q Close up to that part which you denominate as the turbulent portion of the meeting?

A No sir.

Q You were not that near?

A No sir.

Q You were on the outskirts, or over about the stairs, or down to the station?

A No sir, I was on the outskirts, or on the stairs.

Q Or down to the station--you went down to the station?

A Once, yes, perhaps two minutes or three minutes I was

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gone.

Q You say the police marched up, and you rushed back and got on your stairs again?

A Yes sir.

Q After you got on the stairs, did you see anything, did you hear anything, any comments on the speaker?

Q I paid no attention to them--the sound of his voice probably struck me.

Q Did you notice anything that he said?

A No sir.

Q So then when the police were coming up closer, you did not hear him turn around and say in a loud voice: "There come the bloodhounds, now you do your duty and I will do mine". You did not hear that, did you?

A I don't believe I did.

Q Now, didn't you hear this after you got your position on the stairs, and the police were forming and marching below, didn't you hear him say: "Now, in conclusion I will say"?

A I heard him say "in conclusion". I remember that now, yes sir.

Q Then he was just about to close his speech as you judge at least that was his language?

A That strikes me as familiar. Whether I heard that then, or whether that is in my mind from later reading it or hearing it, I can't be positive.

Q You were a witness before the coroner's inquest?

A I was.

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Q Don't you remember you testified to that before the coroner?

A I may have.

Q If you did, your memory was correct as to that?

A Whatever I testified then was to the best of my recollection.

Q That was the second day after?

A Yes sir.

Q Don't you remember that you did use the language that after you got back on the stairs, the only word you heard from the speaker was the words, "Now in conclusion", or words to that effect?

A No sir.

Q You did say that?

A If it is in my testimony before the coroner, I certainly said it.

The Court: (Q) Do you new remember to have said it?

A I do not.

Mr. Foster: (Q) Look at your testimony before the coroner---that is your name, Paul C. Hull?

A That is it.

Q "I heard Mr. Fielden say in conclusion". Yes sir.

Q Is that your belief now, your recollection that you did use the words "in conclusion"?

A That is past my memory now.

Q At the time you wrote the report in regard to what occurred at the time of the throwing of the bomb, what particular language is there that you are now reminded of or that you remember that you did not state in your report?

A I cannot say, as I do not remember all that I stated in

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the report.

Q It was fresh on your mind at the time you wrote that report?

A Confused.

Q You were not shot?

A No sir.

Q You were not excited by the explosion of the bomb?

A I was very much. I had been tramped on until I was so lame I could hardly walk.

Q So then your ideas of what occurred about that time is not very clear even now?

A They are now, the salient points, the prominent features of that occasion are very clear in my mind.

Q Now, then, the prominent features I will call your attention to% Don't you remember at the time you wrote that article you said, describing what Captain Ward had said, you described the bomb, the throwing of the bomb and the explosion of the bomb, you remember describing that?

A I probably did.

Q Don't you remember?

A I don't.

Q You don't remember of even describing that the bomb was thrown and exploded?

A I may have, yes.

Q You don't remember whether you did or not?

A I do not. I don't remember in this way. I don't call to mind exactly what I wrote on that occasion.

Q I don't ask you for the words, but whether you expressed the idea that the bomb was thrown and exploded?

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A I did express that idea.

Q Now, then did you express the further idea, that no order to fire was necessary to the police, that they immediately drew their weapons and commenced to fire?

A I believe I did, yes sir.

Q Did you say that anybody else fired except the police?

A I don't know.

Q Look at the report and see whether you said that anybody besides the police fired? (Shows witness copy of Daily News of May 5th, 1886.)

A You want then what I wrote on this subject.

Q Now, I want you to see whether or not you stated any where in this article that the crowd fired on the police at all from beginning to end---did you state that the crowd fired upon the police at the time, and if you did not state that the bomb was exploded, and the police required no orders to fire, but proceeded to fire immediately?

A I have said nowhere in this report that the crowd fired.

Q You say now that you have said nowhere in this report that the crowd fired upon the police?

A That is what I say.

Q You did say that the police required no orders before firing upon the crowd?

A Yes sir.

Mr. Grinnell: (Q) After the explosion of the bomb?

A After the explosion of the bomb. That was probably more an editorial

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opinion than a statement of fact.

Mr. Foster: (Q) Now, I will ask you how long after this occurrence was it that you wrote it up?

A About an hour I should judge.

Q After describing the explosion of the bomb, did you use this language in your report: "For an instant after the explosion the crowd seemed paralyzed, but with the revolver shots cracking like a tattoo on a mighty drum, and the bullets flying in the air, the mob plunged away into the darkness with a yell of rage and fear".

A That sounds like me, yes sir.

Q You think you wrote that?

A I guess I must have.

Q Gould was the man wasn't he that they said, "Let us hang him"?

A I don't remember.

Q Speaking about Jay Gould, did not Mr. Parsons and the crowd propose to hang how now?

A I don't know.

Q But Gould was not at the Haymarket that you know of?

Mr. Grinnell: He says he don't know that his name was called.

Mr. Foster: (Q) Wasn't it Gould?

A I don't know.

Q You didn't see Mr. Gould at the Haymarket, did you?

A No sir, You mean Jay Gould of New York?

Q Yes sir.

A No, he was not there.

Q Don't you remember that his name was the name you say you don't remember?

A I don't remember Mr. Gould's name

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being mentioned.

Q You saw a notice of that meeting, the reason you come to go there?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you keep a copy of that notice, take a copy of it?

A I had a copy--I believe my city editor gave me a copy of the Revenge Circular.

Q I will call your attention to it. Where did that come from there. Did you publish that? (Calls witness & attention to certain part of paper.)?

A I did not write that.

Q You don't know how it come in with the article that you wrote?

A No sir, I can't say positively, because I did not write it. That was written, however, and that is a copy of the workingmen's circular which was distributed, I have no doubt.

Q I will ask you if in the copy of the workingmen's circular which called for that meeting, if the words are contained there, "Arm yourselves and appear in full force"?

Objected to.

A I don't know.

Q Did you see the original bill?

A I believe I did.

Q Where is that?

A I don't know; I suppose that was destroyed the instant that was written, or thrown on the floor.

Q Now, then, did that originally contain the words, or

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contain any words aside from what are here? Did it contain the words, "Arm yourselves, and appear in force"?

Objected to.

A I don't know.

The Court: The witness has no knowledge which enables him to testify in regard to that.

Mr. Foster: Our point is this, as indicated from our cross examination already, that when these circulars were brought into the Arbeiter Zeitung office, Mr. Spies was asked to speak at that meeting. He read the circular and says, "No, I wont speak if that clause is contained in the circular. Here is a copy of the circular which the newspaper sets out, calling the meeting, and that clause is not in it at all.

The Court: The newspaper is not by itself evidence, and this witness had no personal connection with that part of the newspaper.

Mr. Black: This witness has said that he saw the original circular calling the meeting, and that this is a copy of it, that the original was destroyed--that he saw.

The Witness: No sir.

The Court: He says that it was destroyed, not from any personal observation of his own, but that he supposes from the nature of things, that it would be destroyed.

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Mr. Black: Our question was whether or not the originals that he saw had in it the words, "Workingmen arm yourselves and appear in force.

The Court: I have no doubt that if the original which he saw two months and a half ago could be now produced, and if he remembers, not from that newspaper, but if he remembers from his reading that circular what the terms of it were, I think it would be admissible for him to state it.

Mr. Grinnell: It seems to me it is not proper cross examination.

The Court: It is not cross examination.

Mr. Grinnell: It has been admitted from the beginning there were two classes of circulars.

The Court: If the witness remembers whether that line was in the circular which he saw or not let him tell, if he has any recollection upon the subject, let him tell what his recollection is.

The Witness: I have no recollection on that subject.

Mr. Foster: (Q) You don't know, you don't remember whether it said, "Arm yourselves and appear in force?

A No sir.

Q From your position you saw where the bomb struck?

A Yes sir.

Q You saw it come through the air?

A Yes sir.

Q It struck how far from a line drawn from the wagon?

A My recollection of it was that it struck about on a

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line with the south line of the alley.

Q Then the bomb came from behind you should think the boxes, or about the boxes which were south of the alley?

A I don't know that it came from behind the boxes. I saw the spark when it was in the air on a level with my eye. It might have been thrown that way, or might have been thrown this way, and then reaching that point, but it apparently fell this way. It apparently fell north from the point, where I first saw it in the air. I judge it came from the south.

Q Your idea is that instead of being thrown southwest it was thrown west and a little north?

A Yes sir.

Q West, nor'west as Captain, what is his name would say?

A Yes, I guess so.

Q Lieut. Stanton?

A Captain Kidd.

Introduction of evidence, 1886 July 26. 157 154

Mr. Grinnell: We propose to read the extracts from the Alarm. I understand the Alarm has been offered in evidence, and admitted in evidence. Mr. Fricke has identified it, and Mr. Burgess identified it, and the editorship has been proven.

Mr. Black: It has not been admitted.

The Court: It has not been offered in evidence, but there has been evidence that Parsons was the editor of it. The composition work was done by the Arbeiter Zeitung, and the

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printing by Burgess upon the order of the Arbeiter Zeitung.

Mr. Black: That is in--I want the record to be preserved so when the paper is offered, the objection can be made. The objection I make is that it has not yet been introduced, because when it is offered I desire that the objection be interposed and preserved in the record.

Counsel for the State introduced article headed "Tramps" dated October 4th, 1884, from the Alarm. Same marked People's Ex.18, contained in Vol. of Exhibits here to annexed.

Mr. Foster: We object to the introduction of this article in addition to our other objections for incompetency and immateriality, and that it is a communication signed, as appears upon its face to be a communication by Lucy E. Parsons.

Mr. Ingham: They show upon their face they are communications. Some are editorials, others extracts from other papers, but they are all in the same line. We desire to show that the whole paper is devoted to that subject and nothing else.

The Court: Whether a publisher of a paper is copying a thing as a matter of news, or whether he is adopting it as advice to the public, is a thing for the jury to determine.

Mr. Foster: From the paper?

The Court: From all the circumstances, not from the face of the paper necessarily alone, but from the whole case.

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Defendant's counsel then and there excepted to the ruling of the court.

The article headed "Tramps" was here read in evidence in the words and figures following, to wit:

(Here insert.) (See Ante, 126)

Mr. Furthman, counsel for the People read in evidence article headed "Workingmen of America", Volume 1, No. 1 of the Alarm, dated Chicago, October 4th, 1884, in the words and figures following, to wit:

Objected to; overruled and exception.

(Here insert.) Same marked People's Ex.19 contained in Volume of Exhibits here to attached.

Counsel for People next read in evidence article from "Alarm" of Oct. 11th, 1884, headed "Take Care". Same marked People's Ex. 20 in Volume of Exhibits hereto annexed.

Mr. Furthman, counsel for the people, read in evidence article headed "The Anarchists", in No.3 Volume 1 of the Alarm, dated October 18th, 1884, in the words and figures following, to wit:

Objected to; overruled and exception.

(Here insert.) Same marked People's Ex.21 contained in Volume of Exhibits hereto attached.

Mr. Furthman, counsel for the People read in evidence articles headed "The Socialist" and " "Arming", Volume 1, No.4 of the Alarm, dated October 25th, 1884.

Objected to; overruled and exception.

(Here insert.) Same marked People's Exhibits 22 and 23 contained in Vol. of exhibits hereto annexed.

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Mr. Furthman, counsel for the People, read in evidence article headed "Useless Classes" in the Alarm dated November 1st, 1884:

Objected to; overruled and exception.

(Here insert.) Same marked People's Ex. 24, contained in Vol. of Exhibits here to annexed.

Mr. Furthman, counsel for the People, read in evidence editorial, from the Alarm, under date of November 1st, 1884, beginning as follows: "The socialists are accused of advocating----

Objected to; overruled; and exception.

(Here insert.) Same marked People's Ex. 25 contained in Vol. of Exhibits here to annexed.

Mr. Furthman, counsel for the People, read in evidence article headed "Anarchism", dated November 1st, 1884, from the Alarm.

Objected to; overruled, and exception.

(Here insert.) Same marked People's Ex. 26 contained in Vol. of Exhibits here to annexed.

Mr. Furthman, counsel for the People read in evidence article headed "Butchers of Men", in No. 7, Volume 1, of the Alarm, dated November 15th, 1884, in the words and figures following, to wit:

Objected to; overruled; and exception.

(Here insert.) Same marked People's Ex. 27 and contained in Vol. of exhibits here to annexed.

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Mr. Furthman, counsel for the People, read in evidence article headed "This paper", in Volume 1, No. 8 of the Alarm, dated November 22nd, 1884.

Objected to; overruled and exception.

(Here insert.) Same marked People's Exhibit 28 contained in Volume of Exhibits here to annexed.

Mr. Furthman, counsel for the People, read in evidence article headed "The Black Flag", in Volume 1, No. 9 of the "Alarm, dated November 29th, 1884, in the words and figures following, to wit:

Objected to; overruled and exception.

(Here insert.) Same marked People's Exhibit 29, contained in Volume of exhibits here to annexed.

Mr. Furthman, counsel for the People, introduced and read in evidence article headed "The Property Power" from the Alarm, dated November 29th, 1884, in the words and figures following, to wit:

Objected to; overruled, and exception.

(Here insert.) Same marked People's Exhibit 30, contained in volume of exhibits here to annexed.

Mr. Furthman, counsel for the People read in evidence article headed "Dynamite" from the Alarm of December 6th, 1884, in the words and figures following, to wit:

Objected to; overruled and exception.

(Here insert.) Same marked People's Ex. 31, contained in Volume of Exhibits here to annexed.

Court adjourned to 10 o'clock A.M. July 27, 1886.

Testimony of Whiting Allen (first appearance), 1886 July 27. 162 159

10 o'clock A.M. July 27th, 1886.

Court met pursuant to adjournment.

WHITING ALLEN, a witness called and sworn on behalf of the People, was examined in chief by Mr. Grinnell, and testified as follows.

Q What is your name?

A Whiting Allen.

Q You are a newspaper reporter?

A Yes sir.

Q Employed by the Times?

A Yes sir.

Q Were you so employed, so engaged on May 4th last?

A I was.

Q Were you at the Haymarket square on the evening of May 4th, 1886?

A Yes sir.

Q You were down there when the speaking was going on?

A I was there during a portion of the time while Mr. Parsons was speaking, and also a moment or so while Mr. Fielden was speaking.

Q Were you down there with Mr. Tuttle of the Times?

A Mr. Tuttle of the Times, yes sir-I went there from Zepf's Hall I was looking after the meeting of Zepf's Hall, and went over to the Haymarket.

Q What time did you get down there?

A I arrived at Zepf's Hall, I suppose quarter past nine.

Q That is corner of Lake and Desplaines?

A Yes sir.

Q What time did you get down to the meeting?

A About

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ten minutes later.

Q Who was speaking when you got there?

A Parsons.

Q Did you listen to his speech?

A Well yes sir, I did.

Q What did he say?

A He said a great many things.

Q Give me as near as you can, in your own way, using your own language, the substance of what he said that night.

A His speech was of a highly incendiary character.

The Court: That is not telling what he said. It is telling your opinion. Tell what he said.

Mr. Grinnell: Let that be stricken out.

The Witness: About the only thing that I could quote exact was that at one time he said, "What good are these strikes going to do? Do you think that anything will be accomplished by them? Do you think the working men are going to gain their point? No, no, they will not. The result of them will be that you will have to go back to work for less money than you are getting". That is his language in effect. I don't pretend to say it is exact.

Q Give me some words of his language, if you can, in effect or in substance?

A At one time he mentioned the name of Jay Gould, there were cries from the crowd: "Hang Jay Gould; throw him into the Lake", and so on.

Q What was the temper of the crowd?

A He said, "No, no, that would not do any good. If you would hang Kay Gould now, there would be another and perhaps a hundred up tomorrow.

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It don't do any good to hang one man. You have to kill them all or get rid of them all". Then he went on to say that it was not the individual always, but the system, that the government should be destroyed. It was the wrong government, and these people who supported it had to be destroyed en masse.

Q Did you hear Parsons in his speech say anything about, "To arms"?

A I heard that cry, and I cannot tell just in what connection.

Q You heard that cry from whom?

A From Parsons.

Q What was the temper of that crowd?

A It was extremely turbulent, and especially after that speech he made about the working men not gaining anything by the strike, I remarked to Mr. Tuttle---

Mr. Black: Never mind your remarks.

Mr. Grinnell: Q State whether or not that crowd was responsive to the speakers, what they did in regard to that, were they excited or not? Give me the appearance and the conduct of the crowd as you saw it, and as they listened to Parsons speech?

A The crowd seemed to me to be thoroughly in sympathy with the speaker, and applauded almost every utterance.

Q Was it exceited or not?

A Extremely so.

Q How long did you stay there?

A I stayed there the first time, I presume for some ten or fifteen minutes, I

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then left and went to Zepf's Hall.

Q Did you come back again?

A. Yes, I came back again.

Q Who was speaking then?

A. Fielden.

Q What did he say?

A. I did not listen to him.

Q Where were you when the bomb was thrown?

A. I was in Zepf's Hall, that is in the saloon, near the corner, standing about the middle of the room at the time.

Q Did you see any of the defendants there?

A. I did not.

Q To your knowledge were they there?

A. No sir.

Q When you went down with Mr. Tuttle, did you point out any of the individuals, the defendants, any of the individuals interested in those meetings, to Mr. Tuttle?

A I pointed out Mr. Parsons and Mr. Fielden and Mr. Spies, and a man that I presume was Mr. Schwab, but was not certain, as I could not get a full view of his face. The general outline was that of Mr. Schwab. I was not positive of that.

Q How early in the evening was that?

A. That must have been I should think, half past nine. I am not positive as to the exact time.

CROSS EXAMINATION By Mr. Forest.

Q Was ten minutes of the speeches all you heard, ten or fifteen minutes?

A. No, I cannot say as to the time, I should judge fifteen minutes.

166 163

Q You stayed ten or fifteen minutes of Mr. Parsons speech. You did not hear Mr. Spies at all?

A. No sir, I did not hear Spies.

Q Do you know what portion of Parsons Speech you heard, whether it was the first or about the first, or towards the last or in the middle---have you any means of knowing?

A I could only judge of that by the time.

Q What time was it?

A. I should imagine that I was there during the latter part of the speech. I think he was on the edge of his peroration when I left.

Q He had a peroration did he?

A. I presume so---he usually did.

Q He was on the ragged edge of it during that time?

A He is never very ragged in his speeches. He is good talker.

Q You say they responded to his utterances---in what way do you mean, by clapping of hands or saying "That is good" etc.?

A. In the usual manner of a crowd in sympathy with the speaker, only more violent than usual.

Q By more violent you mean more applause?

A. Yes sir, more applause, more noise, more shouts.

Q You have attended political meetings?

A. Yes sir.

Q There they are apt to respond and cry out?

A. Yes sir.

Q It was of that character?

A. Yes sir.

Q At the time it was suggested to hang Jay Gould and

167 164

throw him into the lake, he said that would not do any good, that individual violence would not do any good, that the whole system must be undermined.

A. No, no, I did not say he said individual violence would not do any good. I said he said it would not do any good to hang Jay Gould.

Q Because there would be another Jay Gould spring up in his place?

A. Yes sir.

Q But the whole system had to be undermined?

A. They all had to be killed.

Q Did he say they all had to be killed, or the system radically changed, undermined?

A. It was to that effect, yes sir.

Q Now, at the time you went away his peroration was still going on I presume?

A. I presume, yes sir.

Q You went to Zepf's Hall?

A. I went to Zepf's Hall.

Q How long did you stay there?

A. I was there perhaps that time, fifteen or twenty minutes.

Q You were there again after that time while the meeting was going on?

A. I returned from Zepf's Hall up to the meeting, but did not remain.

Q Did you go back to Zepf's Hall?

A. I did.

Q Before the bomb exploded?

A. Yes sir.

Q You were at Zepf's Hall at the time the bomb did explode?

A. Yes sir.

Q Was Parsons there?

A. I did not see him.

168 165

Q You don't remember seeing him there at all that night?

A He was not there, I am almost certain. I should of noticed him if he had been there.

Q Do you remember any gentleman asking you if you wanted to be introduced to Mrs. Parsons?

A. A gentleman asked me at Zepf's Hall if I wanted to be introduced to Mrs. Parsons, which honor I declined.

Q You saw Mrs. Parsons there?

A. I did not say so.

Q There was threatning storm there that night?

A. It was cloudy.

Q Was not there quite a section of that meeting sloughed off to Zepf's Hall, and created quite a crowd there?

A I could not notice much difference. There was a constant passing to and fro from the furniture workers meeting up stairs to the meeting over in what is called hay-market. They were passing back and forth all the time.

Q Quite a crowd there?

A. Very much of a crowd, and very excited.

Q Do you speak German?

A. I understand very slightly, not much.

Q Germans are generally very much excited when they talk-- they have that appearance to an American.

Objected to.

Q Were they not there on that occasion speaking German?

A Some were and some were not.

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I had a conversation with several of them in English.

Q You don't pretend to say that Mr. Parsons was not there at the time the bomb was thrown.

A No sir, I pretend to say I did not see him, was looking for him but did not see him.

Q In pointing out the defendants you pointed out Mr. Spies, Fielden, Mr. Parsons and saw the profile of a man that you thought was Schwab.

A Yes sir.

Q But you were not certain about it then, and are not now certain about it?

A No sir.

Q You saw none other of the defendants there at that time?

A. Not that I can re-call.

Q Now did you have any conversation with any members of the police force that evening before the explosion of the bomb?

A. None what ever.

Q Were you advised by anybody to keep out of the way there, that there was liable to be trouble, by any of the police force?

A. O no. Mr. Tuttle advised me to get out he thought it was a little dangerous.

Q Who was Tuttle?

A. The gentleman I was with a reporter on the Times.

Q Do you know where he got his information?

A. I can't say where he got it. I don't think he had any.

170 167

Q Had he been down to the police station that you know of?

A No sir, He was a stranger in the city, and for that reason went to the meeting with me.

Q You say you don't know whether he was down there or not?

A. At the police station?

Q Yes sir.

A. I think he told me that he was not.

Q That he was not down there.

A. Yes sir.

Q At the time you came back, how near to Mr. Fielden were you?

A. I came up about as far as the second wagon, the wagon upon which Mrs. Parsons was sitting, behind the speakers' wagon.

Q How far was that, fifteen or 20 feet, probably from Fielden?

A. Yes I presume so.

Q There was not anything going on that attracted your attention so you could not tell anything that Fielden said?

A I went up there in rather an abstracted mood. I had no object in going. I had no object to listen to anything, but merely went to kill time, waiting for the meeting at Zepf's Hall.

Q You say you were staying at Zepf's Hall until you became abstracted in mind.

A. I was waiting there for a meeting of the furniture workers to come to a conclusion, and Mr. Malkoff reporter of the Arbeiter Zeitung was to furnish the information, as he had been in the custom of doing.

171 168

we were working together.

Q You were not there in the capacity of reporter at all?

A Not at the hay-market meeting.

Q You did not listen with any reference to reporting?

A No sir, I had instruction from the Times never to report Mr. Parsons.

Q You know Mr. Parsons?

A. Yes sir.

Q You were with him at Zepf's Hall?

A. Yes sir.

Q Don't you remember the defendant Mr. Fischer was there with Mr. Malkoff?

A. No sir, he was not there while I was there with Mr. Malkoff.

Q Did you say he was not at the Hall?

A. I don's say he was not at the hall, but not with Mr. Malkoff while I was with Mr. Malkoff.

Q. All you know now is you don't now remember seeing him?

A I did not see him.

Q Your judgment is you did not see him?

A. My judgment is I did not see him.

Q Whether he was there or not you don't know?

A. That I know nothing about. I was not acquainted with him then.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. About Mr. Malkoff, the conversation between you and Mr. Malkoff, did you at any time in the central station in the presence of Fischer or Brown, recite the story that you have now told, about your presence at Zepf's Hall or Saloon.

172 169

Objected to.

A I did sir.

THE COURT: The only ground that it would be admissable would be that it was in the presence of Fischer.

MR. BLACK: That is not admissable when Fischer was under arrest.

MR. GRINNELL: Fischer was at the office at the Central station. I want to prove that this witness told another reporter all that occurred.

Objected to.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. I will ask it in another way to dispose of it. You heard the explosion of the bomb?

A. Yes sir.

Q Was Malkoff with you?

A. Yes sir.

Q Was Fischer there?

A. I did not see him.

Objected to.

MR. SALOMON: Q. Were there any other persons there that you did not see?

A. I think that question answers itself. There certainly were hundreds of them.

Q Were there other persons there in that hall that you don't remember now, that you sould not identify now?

A. There were many.

Q A hundred?

A. I should presume so, not in the saloon, but perhaps in the building.

Q In the saloon were there a hundred?

A. No, there were not a hundred.

173 170

Q Fifty?

A. Perhaps.

Q You could not identify those persons now, nor any of them?

A No sir, probably not.

Testimony of Charles R. Tuttle, 1886 July 27. 173 170

CHAS R. TUTTLE,

a witness called and sworn on behalf of the people; was examined in chief by Mr. Grinnell and testifies as follows:

Q What is your name?

A. Charles R. Tuttle.

Q Were you reporter on the Times?

A. Yes sir.

Q Were you present at the hay-market meeting on May 4th last?

A. I was there a short time.

Q Whom did you go down with?

A. I went from Zepf's Hall, corner of Lake & Desplaines St. to the meeting with Mr. Allen, reporter of the Times.

Q Did Mr. Allen point out to you any of the individuals, any of the defendants?

A. Yes sir, he pointed out the speaker.

Q Who was speaking when you got down there?

A. Mr. Parsons.

Q What did he say?

A. Well I could give you but very little of what he said, because we were a portion of the time on the northern outskirts of the crowd, and the meeting was turbulent or noisy and it was difficult to catch the connection between one point and another; and we only stayed

174 171

about 3 or 4 minutes.

Q You were not there to take that meeting?

A. No sir I was assigned--

Q You were assigned to the carpenter's meeting.?

A. To the meeting on Lake St., but we were at the meeting I should think 15, or possibly 20 minutes, and we were close to Mr. Parsons about 3 or 4 minutes or perhaps 5. He took me up to the stand to show me the socialists, as he called them and to show me Mrs. Parsons. I had never been at a socialistic meeting in my life, and was anxious to hear what they had to say, but did not hear a great deal of it.

Q What was the temper of that crowd, its conduct in reference to those that were on the out skirts of the crowd and those that were nearer the speaker--how was it?

A. I should say that the crowd was made up of two classes of persons, and the majority of them were opposed to the sentiments of the speaker, and a minority of those present who were a good deal more enthusiastic than the speaker himself.

Q Where was this crowd that was enthusiastic near the wagon or around it?

A. Forming a semi-circle around the speakers' wagon on the south west, and some were on the north of the wagon.

Q Was that an excited crowd or not--how did they appear and act?

A. I don't know how to describe them. They were

175 172

very enthusiastic, they were very demonstrative.

Q What did you hear Parsons say?

A. I remember of following him through a series of references to existing strikes. One was the south western strike, and to Jay Gould the head of that system of railways, and that created, the winding up of the peroration in connection with that it created a great deal of excitement and many responses from the audience, then he referred to some strike in New York I think. I cannot undertake to say what he said about this south western strike, any more than that he mentioned the name of Mr. Gould. He referred to that strike, that is the best I can tell you. I didn't hear very much what he said about it because I stood on the sidewalk on the east side of Desplaines about half way between the speakers wagon and the wagon upon which Mrs. Parsons was sitting, and therefore the crowd being mostly west of me, the speaker's back was turned to me, and a great deal of the time it was difficult for me to hear what he was saying. But he concluded the series of references to existing strikes by speaking of the strike at McCormick's and detailing the suffering of the people who had wives and children, and who were being robbed by one whom I took to be Mr. McCormick, although I cannot say that is the idea, who were being robbed any way through capitalists; and he said it was no wonder

176 173

that these persons were struggling for their rights; and then said that the police had been called out by the capiialists to prevent or to suppress the first indication of any movement on the part of the working people to stand up for their rights, or something to that effect. There was then considerable demonstration on the part of the audience. Always I noticed there were two classes, those who seemed to be against what he said, and those who were rather more enthuciastis than himself. And he stated it this way: "What will you do"? or "What are you going to do?" But now what it was about I can't tell, but it was in connection with this reference that he made to McCormicks. The same parties who had spoken when he referred to Gould, I think the same, one of them any way, because I had my eye on him for 2 or 3 minutes, two minutes I should say. I think I could describe the man, and would know him if I saw him: he stuck up his hand like that (illustrating) with a revolver in it and said "We will shoot the devils" or some such expression. And I saw 2 others sticking up there hands near to him who made similar expressions, and had what I took to be at that time revolvers: but this one man I speak of I took particular notice of him, and remember his appearance, and saw his revolver very plainly in his right hand; and he grasped it about the centre of the weapon and stuck it up in front

177 174

of the speaker. And then I went away. I had stepped from Mr. Allen, I had stepped down to see Mrs. Parsons, and had stepped in between the 2 wagons, and when this demonstration occurred I walked back and we went over to Zeph's Hall and I went about my business, and that is all I can remember about it.

Q Where were you when you heard the explosion of the bomb?

A I heard what I took to be the explosion of the bomb not at the time I heard it, but what I have since taken to be the explosion of the bomb, the report of it, on a car on the Randolph St. bridge. I was going to the Times office with my report from the furniture workers meeting at 54 W. Lake St.

CROSS EXAMINATION by MR. FOSTER.

Q You say they were turbulent or noisy, that is, were they any different from what you saw at political meetings?

A Not any different in the degree of demonstration.

Q Not any different in the degree of demonstration.

A No sir, not any different in the amount of noise.

Q You say you were within 3 or 4 minutes, within hearing distance probably 3 or 4 minutes where you could distinctly hear.

A. I don't think I was longer than 5 and think it would not exceed 3 or 4.

178 175

Q Did you hear the expression by any person when reference was made to Jay Gould "Throw him in the lake", or something of that kind?

A. I don't recollect that throwing him in the lake.

Q Nor "Hang him"?

A. I don't think I heard that?

Q Do you remember the response that came from Mr. Parsons "No that is useless", no use in doing any thing of that kind.

A It strikes me when the references were being made to the south western strike, we were pressing our way through the crowd to get closer to the speakers. There was a good deal of noise, but I cannot describe very well what was said except that one man.

Q I am speaking now about what Parsons say---did Parsons say "no"

A. I did not hear that.

Q Mr. Allen was right with you wasn't he?

A. Not at just the period I speak of. He was standing on the sidewalk I left him on the sidewlk close to the building, and I stepped down close to the wagon on which Mrs. Parsons was sitting, and then passed between the two wagons, and was perhaps three minutes, perhaps not that long, would not like to be certain about the time was 20 or 30 feet away from him.

Q When he came to the McCormick matter you say he said that the very first action of the people, the first gathering of the people to give expressions to their rights, or at leost to stand up for their rights, as he expressed it, was

179 176

suppressed by the police.

A. That seemed to be the substance of his remark in that connection.

Q Was there anything said about what was done at McCormicks, that you can remember now?

A. i should dislike to try to put in any form what he said.

Q What was your idea, that you gathered?

A. His references to McCormicks was that which created more expressions of hostility towards him and expressions in favor of him than anything else I heard. It brough in the audience a confusion.

Q That was the expression as you stated that the very first move on the part of the laboring man to stand up for their rights was suppressed by the police.

A. I would not wish to confine it to that.

Q That was the idea?

A. That was one of the ideas.

Q That is all y u can remember of?

A. All that I can put in any shape that would resemble the shape he put it in to.

Q Where were you standing at the time this man held up the revolver?

A. I was within five or six feet of him.

Q When the man held up the revolver where were you in reference to Mr. Parsons who was speaking?

A. I should say directly north of him.

Q Was his side to you or his back to you?

A. He moves

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about very much when he speaks. He would not have anything to you more than a second, or half a second. He is very demonstrative.

Q Was that remark made by any one that you recognize as any of the defendants?

A. No sir, I would recognize that man that had the revolver I think.

Q You recognized the fact then that he was not one of the defendants here in this row.

A. No he is not one.

Q Did that remark meet the ear of the speaker?

A. No sir.

Q There was no response to that on the part of Mr. Parsons that you heard?

A. No sir.

Q Or in any way to the suggestion made or the motion made by this man who had the revolver?

A. No sir, not in any way that I saw.

Q You don't know that he either saw him or heard any exclamation from him?

A. I don't know by any action of his that he saw him, but he stood about 15 feet north west of Mr. Parsons.

Q Mr. Parsons, at the time this man made the remark, was going on with his speach to the crowd, and speaking as any man does?

A. Mr. Parsons has the habit, or had that night of making a point, and then coming to a pause, and allowing it to have its effect, before he would disturb the effect by further declamation.

Q Was it during one of these pauses that this man made

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the statement, or was Mr. Parsons speaking or do you know?

A I should say, Yes sir I know. I should think this demonstration was at the completion of his reference to the McCormick matter, and I should think a quarter of a minute was occupied in demonstration. There were persons who denounced in some manner by expression as is customary in meetings like that, who were opposed apparently; and then these persons who were near---

Q So then when Mr. Parsons had paused for the point to take effect, so as not to interfere with the effect of the statement, during that pause there were expressions of applause or disapproval going on?

A. Yes sir.

Q So then what this man said when this man said when he had his revolver in his hand probably might have been drowned by the speaker or expressions made by others round or about him.

A. Quite so because he did not speak extremely loud and there were others speaking in a similar way. I saw within two or three or four five seconds we will say, three persons do that, all of them giving vent to some similar expression.

Q Did any of them attract the attention of Mr. Parsons?

A Not that I know of.

Q Or the comments of Mr. Parsons that you know?

A I could not say.

Q Do you know whether this was toward the close?

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A I am quite clear of that and when I saw those revolvers I felt like getting away.

Q It was near the close?

A. I was going to explain how I know.

Q It don't make any difference how you know. You were not there when Mr. Fielden was introduced?

A. No.

Q Nor during any part of the 20 minutes?

A. I was walking away when the change took place between the speakers.

Q You were not there during any of the 20 minutes or half hour Fielden spoke?

A. I did not hear him speak at all, did not see him when he was speaking. I saw him before that.

Testimony of Edward Cosgrove, 1886 July 27. 182 179

EDWARD COSGRAVE,

a witness called and sworn on behalf of the people; was examined in chief by Mr. Grinnell and testifies as follows:

Q What is yourname?

A. Edward Cosgrove

Q You ar a police man?

A. Yes sir.

Q And belong to the detective force?

A. Yes sir.

Q Were you detailed to the hay-market square May 4th last?

A Yes.

Q What time did you get there?

A. About ten minutes to eight.

Q Was there any speaking going on when you got there?

A No sir.

Q Much of a crowd there?

A. Yes sir.

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Q Where?

A. They were then about half way between Randolph St. and Desplaines station, and running across Randolph St. on Desplaines.

Q The crowd was situated across there?

A. Yes sir.

Q Who were defendants that you saw there?

A. I saw Schwab, Spies and Parsons.

Q Did you see Fielden?

A. I was not near enough to Fielden to identify him. I saw him in the distance.

Q You were then when the meeting was open?

A. I was

Q How near to the wagon?

A. About 40 feet, about 30 to 40 feet.

Q Who opened the meeting?

A. Spies.

Q How many people were there at that hour?

A. Well the street was pretty well filled for about 160 or 150 feet, the full width of the street and sidewalk.

Q In which direction from the wagon?

A. Right round the wagon.

Q Was there 500 or thousand or 1500 people?

A. I should judge there was over 2000 any way---there might be three or four thousand. I should judge there was over 2000.

Q What did Spies say?

A. When he got on the wagon first he asked if Parsons was there, he called out twice, and he said that Fielden would be there later. He called to some body in the crowd to go and find Parsons, then he said he would get down from the wagon and go and find him himself.

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He got down and went in a south westerly direction. He came back in a short time and commenced speaking.

Q Do you remember what he said?

A. He talked about being out on the black road and talking from a freight car to a large crowd of people; and they did not want to hear him because he was a socialist, but he spoke to them anyhow; and he said the crowd then went towards McCormicks, and they amused theyselves harmlessly throwing stones at McCormicks building, the most harmless amusement he thought they could have; then he talked about the police, the blood hounds of the law shooting down six of their brothers and he said "When you get ready to do something do it, and don't tell any body you are going to".

Q What was the effect of this speach of Spies on the crowd, how was their temper, how did they take it?

A. There was a great number of the crowd that cheered him very luodly.

Q Where was the enthusiastic part of the crowd, near to the out skirts?

A. Close to the wagon. Sometimes there would be some on the out skirts.

Q Did you stay there during the time Spies was speaking?

A No sir.

Q Were you there when Parsons spoke?

A. Part of the time

Q Tell what you hear Parsons say?

A. He talked of statistics of the United States statistician, about the price laboring men receive. He said they got fifteen cents out of

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a dollar, and they were on the still hunt for the other 85 cents. He talked of the police and capitalists and militia and Pinkertons. He said he was down in the Hocking Valley region, and said they were only getting 24 cents a day, and that was less than Chinamen, and he said "My friends, you will be worse than Chinamen if you don't arm yourselves, and he said they would be held responsible for the blood that would flow in the near future.

Q Did you hear any expression from him such as "To arms" cry out, "to arms"?

A. No sir, I did not.

Q Did you hear all he said?

A. No sir.

Q What was the temper of the crowd, during Parsons speech, how did they act?

A. There was a great deal of cheering close to the wagon 20 or 30 feet from the wagon, and a few upon the outside.

Q Do you know when the police were called out?

A. Yes sir.

Q Where were you then?

A. I was in Captian Ward's office.

Q You come down the street at the time the police did?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you hear Bonfield or Ward address the speaker on the wagon?

A. I did not.

Q Where were you when the police came to a hault?

A. I was on the north west corner of Randolph & Desplaines St., about the north side of the sidewalk, probably a little

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closer to the police.

Q Did you see the bomb in the air or hear it explode

A I heard it explode. I did not see it in the air.

Q In reference the alley, about where did that bomb explode?

Objected to as leading.

THE COURT: He asked where it exploded.

THE WITNESS: From the sound it exploded about the center of the street, and close to the alley.

Q North of you?

A. North of me.

Q Before the explosion of that bomb, had there been any firing that you heard?

A. No sir.

Q No pistol shots fired?

A. No sir.

Q With reference to the firing of that bomb, how soon did the shots begin, t e pistol shots?

A. Immediately.

Q From what Source did they come first, if you know?

A I can't tell. I don't know.

Q You don't know whether the police fired first, or whether the other side fired first?

A. No sir, I do not.

Q What did you do when the firing began?

A. I stood there a little while and then got in behind a telegraph pole.

Q You stood on the side of the street behind that telegraph pole?

A. Yes sir, I stood there until the firing ceased, and then I came out and met officer Reed, the first person and he told me that he was shot. I went across the street to the south west corner of Randolph Street with him,

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and I seen Officer Degan laying on the sidewalk dead. Then I left Officer Reed go to the station alone, and stayed to do what I could for Degan.

Q That is Matthias J. Degan, police officer?

A. Yes sir.

Q You say you were there part of the time---where were you the balance of the time? Did you go from the meeting down to the station?

A. From the meeting down to the station.

Q You reported there from time to time what was going on at the meeting?

A. Yes sir.

CROSS EXAMINATION by MR. FOSTER.

Q How many times were you up there?

A. Twice.

Q Were you there while Fielden was speaking?

A. Yes sir.

Q You did not narrate I believe any of Fielden's speech?

A I was not there during Fielden's speech. I did not go there during Fielden's speech.

Q When was it you made your report?

A. I made my report when Mr. Parsons said that they would be held responsible for the blood that would be made to flow in the streets of America in the near future.

Q After you made that report the police remained at the station?

A. Yes sir.

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Q When did you make the second report?

A. That was my second report.

Q When Mr. Parsons made that statement?

A. Yes sir.

Q When did you make the first one?

A. When Mr. Spies was speaking.

Q And the police still remained at their station?

A Yes sir.

Q You did not hear, and was not up there while Fielden was making his speech?

A. No sir.

Q You don't know how much of the crowd had gone when the black cloud came up?

A. Yes sir, when I come out there before the police come out, there was quite a crowd, quite a number gone away.

Q Quite a number gone away?

A. Yes sir.

Q Just give us the words Mr. Spies used again, the words that he used with reference to what they should do. What was it Mr. Spies said?

A. Mr. Spies said that he went up to the black road to speak the day before, and that he got on a freight car, and spoke to a large crowd there, and that they went towards McCormick's, and that they amused themselves by harmlessly throwing stones at the building, which was the most innocent amusement he thought they could have, and he said, "When you get ready to do something, go and do it, but don't tell anybody you are going to".

189 186

Q There were a good many other people heard that in that crowd?

A. I can't tell. I suppose they could, the whole crowd heard it.

Q Everybody ought to have heard that remark?

A. Yes sir.

Q Whereabouts were you standing at the time?

A. I was standing about twenty-five or thirty feet north of the north side of Randolph Street, on Desplaines.

Q There were a great many people nearer to Mr. Spies tham you were in that crowd?

A. Yes sir, a great many.

Q You saw Mr. Schwab there before the meeting began?

A Yes sir.

Q You did not see him afterwards?

A. After the meeting began?

Q After Mr. Spies returned?

A. I seen him there just after the time Mr. Spies returned.

Q Did you see him after that?

A. I am not really sure of that.

Q You don't say that you did?

A. I don't say that I did.

Q Whereabouts was he?

A. When I saw him first?

Q Yes sir.

A. He was about forty feet south of the north side of the sidewlk, of the south sidewalk, on Randolph Street, about forty feet south on Desplaines.

Q Whereabouts was it when you saw him the last time.

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A At the wagon.

MR. SALOMON: Q. This is Randolph Street, and this is Desplaines (pointing on diagram) between the police station and Randolph Street?

A. Yes sir, on that side.

MR. INGHAM: Q. It is on the west side?

A. Yes sir.

MR. FOSTER: Q. What time was it you saw Mr. Schwab the last time?

A. I guess it was about half past eight or mayby a little later.

Q. During the time Mr. Spies was speaking, and during the time that Mr. Parsons was speaking, or at any time after that, did you see Mr. Schwab at that meeting?

A. My impression is that I seen Mr. Schwab near the close of Mr. Parsons' speech, but I am not sure of it.

Q You are not sure about that?

A. No sir.

Q When is the last time you are sure of it?

A. The last time I am sure of it is at the wagon.

Q And with reference to the speaking, about the opening of the meeting?

A. About the time Mr. Spies came back the second time to speak.

Q That was about half past eight?

A. About half past eight, just about that time I guess.

Testimony of Timothy McKeough (second appearance), 1886 July 27. 190 187

TIMOTHY MCSKEOUGH,

a witness recalled on behalf of the people was examined by Mr. Grinnell and testified as follows:

191 188

Q You are a police officer?

A. Yes sir.

Q Belong to the detective force?

A. Yes sir.

Q You were detailed at the hay-market square, haymarket meeting on May 4th?

A. Yes sir.

Q What time did you get there?

A. I left the central station about six o'clock, in that neighborhood, and went right over to Desplaines Street, and reported to Inspector Bonfield, and got my orders from him.

Q Were you out into the street then?

A. I walked out on the street, and walked up and down with the crowd. There was a crowd coming and going all the time, walked around and did not seem to have any certain place to stop. I stayed there until about in the neighborhood of eight o'clock.

Q Where did you go?

A. I was in the crowd all the time walking around.

Q Where did you go---did you go up as far as Halstead Street?

A. Very near, as far as between Halstead and Desplaines up on both sides of Randolph Street.

Q The meeting finally opened in you presence---did you see it open?

A. Yes sir.

Q Who did that?

A. Mr. Spies.

Q Where were you then?

A. I just come from Randolph Street, and as I got there, Mr. Spies got on the wagon, and says: "Is Mr. Parsons here?" He called out twice "Is Mr.

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Parsons here?" He did not get any answer, and he talked with somebody in front of him, I don't know who he was. He said "Never mind, I will go and find him myself." and just then some one said "Let us pull a wagon around on Randolph Street, and hold the meeting there". Mr. Spies said "No, that might stop the street cars". He started away then, and Officer Myers and myself followed him as far as the corner. There was a man with him who I think was Schwab. I was not very sure, because I did not pay much particular attention to anybody but Spies at that time; and in about five minutes he returned, and when I got back he was addressing the meeting; and he was talking about what happwned to their brethern the day before at McCormick's--- about being shot down. He said he had been down to McCormick's, and addressed a meeting, and that they wanted to stop him; that they tried to pull him off the car because he was a socialist; that while he was talking a portion of the crowd started towards McCormick's, and commenced to throw stones, the most harmless amusement they could have. Then he went on to show how the wagons loaded with police came down the black road, as he called it, and commenced firing into the crowd. Somebody halloed out just then "Let us hang them" (Meaning the police officers as I suppose). And he says "My friends", turning around--- the man that hallooed that out was a little bit towards the

193 190

south of the wagon, and about ten feet out in the street. He says "When you get ready to do anything, go and do it, and say nothing about it." Just in about that neighborhood of time Mr. Parsons I guess arrived, and Mr. Spies concluded his speech by saying Parsons had arrived, and he could talk better English than him, and would entertain them probably better than he could, and he gave way to Mr. Parsons.

Q Were you there all the time after you got back and found Spies speaking. Did you stay by until Spies finished?

A Yes sir, until he introduced Mr. Parsons.

Q Did you report back at the station any time then?

A Not during Mr. Spies' speech.

MR. ZEISLER: We do not think it is material or relevent what any of these detectives reported to headquarters.

MR. GRINNELL: We are not asking what they reported. Only the fact.

MR. ZEISLER: It is not material; it is not relovant.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. Where did you go then---did you stay there

A I stayed right in front of the wagon.

Q Who was the next speaker?

A. Mr. Parsons.

Q What did Parsons say?

A. He opened up his address by saying---

Q Let me ask you, what was the temper of that crowd, how did it act and appear during the speaking of Mr. Spies?

194 191

A At the time Mr. Spies was showing them how the officers came down the black road, and commenced shooting into the crowd of workingmen, and shooting them down, because they were out there, they appeared very much excited in the neighborhood of the wagon and in the neighborhood where they hallooed out: "Let us hang them".

Q Go on now with Parsons' speech?

A. Parsons got up and said as he had a terrible cold that he would keep his hat on during his speech. He started his speech by taking from some book on labor statistics, and he says, "I suppose there is a great number of you that don't know anything about this book, because you haven't got the money to buy it, or you haven't got the leisure to read it, because you have got to work too much, to work too long, and you haven't got time to read when you get home---something to that effect. He said for every dollar that us laboring men make for capitalists, we receive fifteen cents, or something like that sum, and he says "We are on a still hunt for the eighty five cents". He went on to say how he had been down through the coal mines and addressed the coal miners down there, and from the labor statistics they had received twenty four and a half cents for their daily labor---that is about what they average during the year. And he says "That is just half as much as the Chinamen would get" and he says "If we keep on, we will be a great deal worse than

195 192

Chinamen." He then said: "I am a tenant, and I pay rent to a landlord." Somebody in the crowd then asked him: "What does the landlord do with it?" He says: "My friend, I am very glad you asked me that question. I will tell you. The landlord pays taxes, the taxes pay the sheriff, the police, the Pinkerton knights and the militia that are on duty out at the barracks who are ready to shoot you down when you are looking for your rights." He says: "I am a socialist from the top of my head to the soles of my feet, and I will express my sentiments if I die before morning." He said that very strongly and made a great commotion. That seemed to kind of catch the crowd in the neighborhood of the wagon again, and they let out a great cheer. There was a good many talking among themselves, but they were all Germans, I don't know whether German or not, but they were talking in a language that I could not understand. I went out to the outer edge of the crowd then Officer Myers called me out. The next remark I heard Mr. Parson say, taking off his hat in one hand, said he: "To arms, to arms, to arms." Three times distinctly. I went over to Desplaines Street station then and reported what I ahd seen and heard at the meeting to Inspector Bonfield.

Q Did you go back again?

A. Yes sir, I came back again.

Q Who was speaking?

A. Mr. Fielden was addressing the meeting.

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Q. How long did you hear Fielden speak, how long were you listening to him?

A. I just listened to Fielden's speech to hear him criticise Martin Foran, the congressman that was elected by the working people. I didn't pay much attention to that. He went on then to show what the law was, and he says: "Who is the law for, for the poor man or the capitalist?" He says: "It is for the capitalist. Yesterday when your brothers demanded their rights at McCormicks', did the law protect you?" He says: "No, it came out and shot you down. When Mr. McCormack closed his door against you for demanding your rights, did the law protect you?" He says: "No, if you love your wives, if you love your children, take the law, kill it, stab it, throttle it, or it will throttle you." That appeared to make the crowd more excited around in the neighborhood of the wagon, and I went over to the station again and made another report to Inspector Bonfield.

Q. Whom did you see on the wagon that night?

A. I saw Schwab on the wagon in the early part of the evening and a man named Schnaubelt.

Q. Did you see Spies on the wagon?

A. Spies, Parsons and Mr. Fielden.

Q. Do you know whether you saw any of the other defendants on the wagon?

A. I did not, no sir.

MR. GRINNELL: That is all.

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CROSS EXAMINATION. By Mr. Black.

Q. You, first of all, as I understand, went down on the haymarket?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You understood that the meeting was to be called for the haymarket or Haymarket Square?

A. Haymarket Square, that is what I understood.

Q. Haymarket Square is an open space occupying two blocks on Randolph, where the street is widened out, and the building line withdrawn?

A. So I understand.

Q. The meeting did not take place on Haymarket Square, did it?

A. No sir.

Q. Were you there when it was proposed that the meeting should be held around on Desplaines street?

A. Was I there at the time?

Q. Yes sir, at the time the proposition was made?

A. No sir, I did not hear any such proposition.

Q. How did you come to get around on Desplaines street?

A. I was attracted by the crowd going that way.

Q. You discovered in other words, that the crowd of people was gathering around on Desplaines street instead of on the Market Square?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You did not understand why, nor know how it came?

A. No sir, I did not.

Q. I understand you to say that you did hear somebody

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proposing to go upon Randolph street, and Mr. Spies thought that could not be done, it would interfere with the street car travel?

A. Yes sir.

Q. How many men do you think were at the meeting on Desplaines street at the time you reached the point of meeting?

A. In the neighborho d of about three hundred men.

Q. How large do you think the crowd was there at any one time while you were present?

A. I should not think it would have exceeded over eight or nine hundred.

Q. You got around to the crowd before any regular speaking commenced I understand?

A. Through the crowd, yes sir.

Q. I mean around on Desplaines street, you got around on Desplaines street before speaking commenced?

A. I did not get over to Desplaines street--when I got there Spies was just asking for Mr. Parsons. I guess that was the starting of it.

Q. Did you hear Spies, before any regular speaking commenced, asking the crowd to come to order and be quiet, or anything of that kind?

A. No sir, I did not.

Q. You testified before the Coroner's jury on the occasion of the inquest over Degan?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Did not you at that time say that you saw Spies on the wagon, and that the asked the crowd to be quiet, and said that Mr. Parsons and the other speakers would be there and address them?

A. I testified that Mr. Spies called on

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on Mr. Parsons, and he said: "Gentlemen, be quiet, Mr. Parsons will be here in a short time", and then somebody out of the crowd asked him to go and look for Parsons, and he said: "I will go myself." He got out of the wagon and started away.

Q. You say now you don't remember why Spies asked the crowd to be quiet?

A. No sir, I don't remember it.

Q. Did you so testify?

A. Not in that way you have got it there.

Q. If you did so testify at the coroner's inquest, saying in effect, "I saw Spies on the wagon, and he asked the crowd to be quiet, that Mr. Parsons and other speaker's would be there and address them"--if you so testified at that time, let me ask you if your memory then of the event was very much clearer than now, the details of the event?

A. Well, I should judge it was.

Mr. GRINNELL: Is that testimony taken at the coroner's inquest in shorthand?

Mr. BLACK: It is a report of it that we have.

Mr. GRINNELL: That is written out in longhand by the coroner.

Mr. BLACK: I have not the full transcript of it. So far as I know though, it is from shorthand writing, type-writing.

THE COURT: There is some misunderstanding between you and

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the witness as to what you are asking about.

Mr. BLACK; I tried to make myself plain. Now, if your Honor thinks you can help the witness out, I would be glad.

THE WITNESS: I understand what you mean.

THE COURT: He understands you are asking about calling the meeting to order when the speaking began.

Mr. BLACK: I asked him if before the speaking began he heard Spies say on the wagon, heard him ask the crowd to be quiet, and say that Mr. Parsons and other speakers would be presnent?

THE WITNESS: No, I did not. I did after he called for Parsons.

Q. After calling for Parsons, he said: "Be quiet",

A. He said: "Gentlemen be quiet: Mr. Parsons will be here in a short time."

Q. did he then get down off of the wagon himself and go away for any length of time?

A. He went away for five or three minutes.

Q. Did he say where he was going?

A. No sir, he did not say.

Q. Didn't he say he was going after Parsons, or would go after Parsons himself?

A. I thought that was what he was going for. He said: "I will go and find him myself", when he was getting down off of the wagon.

Q. That he would go and find him himself?

A. Yes sir.

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Q. Were you there when Spies commenced speaking--he was the first speaker?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Were you there when he commenced speaking?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Do you remember Spies saying in effect, in the opening of his speach, that the meeting was called for the purpose of discussing the general situation, and not for the purpose of raising a disturbance or a row?

A. I did not hear that at all.

Q. And yet you say you heard his speech?

A. I was coming from the outer edge of the crowd in towards the wagon, and Mr. Spies was up there when I got there.

Q. How near to the wagon were you at any time while Spies was speaking?

A. I got within about four feet of him.

Q. When Spies commenced, you were on the outer edge of the crowd?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Then you pressed your way through the crowd, and Spies was speaking in the meanwhile?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You don't know what he said in that interval?

A. No sir.

Q. He was under full headway in his speaking when you got within four feet of the wagon, as you have expressed?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Have you stated the substance of what you heard Spies

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say that night?

A. Now?

Q. Yes sir.

A. Yes sir.

Q. Will you state it again please, so that I can see just what your recollection of his speech is?

A. Yes--Mr. Spies--I took no notes, of course he said a good many things I paid no attentin to.

Q. You did take notes?

A. No sir, I did not take notes--it is my memory. He went on to cite how that he had been out to the meeting the day before at McCormick's on the prairie, that he went to speak there, and that they tried to pull him off the car because he was a socialist and they did not want him to talk; but he said: "I talked anyhow." During my speech some portion of the crowd started towards McCormick's and started throwing rocks at McCormick's works, and the scabs coming out"; and he said it was a most harmless amusement, the most harmless amusement they could have. He went on to tell how the officers came down in a wagon down the black road, and shot into them, shot down their fellow-brethren; and at that time somebody, a little bit south of the wagon hallooed out, "Let us hang them" meaning the officers as I supposed. Mr. Spies said: My friends, when you get ready to do anything, go and do it, but don't say anything about it." That is what I said Mr. Spies speech was, or as much as I could remember.

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Q. That expression of Spies in answer to that remark you have given as nearly as you can remember, have you?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Did not Mr. Spies at that time say in effect to the party about this: "No, it is not the time for any such action. Do not make any threats. You are not ready to act."

A. No sir.

Q. Did he use the expression "threats" at all?

A. I did not hear him.

Q. Did he say in effect at that time: "When that time comes you will no longer make idle threats?

A. I did not hear him say that.

Q. The only expression that you can remember is the one that you have already detailed on the stand?

A. Yes sir.

Q. That expression you are quite positive of?

A. Yes sir.

Q. How long have you been in the detective service?

A. I have been on the police force four years. I have been at the central headquarters acting as detective four months; before that a year and a half at twenty-second street.

Q. You are still in the dective service?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You say that you saw Schwab there that night?

A. Yes sir, in the early portion of the evening.

Q. At what hour do you think you lost sight of him finally?

A. Somewheres in the vicinity of half past eight o'clock.

204 201

Q. After that you did not see him at all during the entire meeting?

A. No sir.

Q. Where was Schwab when you saw him last?

A. The last I saw Schwab he was talking to Mr. Parsons at the side of the wagon.

Q. Had you Seen Schwab on the wagon at any time?

A. he got on the wagon I think before the meeting started, and tapped Mr. Spies on the shoulder and said something to him.

Q. Then Spies called the meeting to order?

A. No, then Spies got down off of the wagon and started away to find Parsons.

Q. Did Schwab remain there during Spies' address?

A. He went away, I lost him through the crowd, but saw him away from me again--I thought it was Schwab from the outline.

Q. Was that the last you saw of Schwab?

A. No sir, I saw him again after that.

Q. When and where did you see him after that that night?

A. At the side of the wagon talking to Spies.

Q. When was that with reference to Spies' speech, was it before he commenced speaking?

A. It was after he made his speech. Mr. Spies only spoke a few minutes.

Q. How long, according to your best recollection, did spies speak there that night?

A. I should judge between fifteen and twenty minutes--I don't think any longer.

Q. You saw Schwab and Spies talking at the side of the

205 202

wagon, and then Schwab disappeared finally?

A. Yes sir.

Q. And you did not see him any more that night?

A. No sir.

Q. That was after Spies had finished his speech according to your recollection?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Are you positive of that?

A. To the best of my recollection it was, I think.

Q. Is your recollection as clear up on that subject as it is upon the other matters to which you have testified as taking place that night?

A. I should judge so, yes sir.

Q. Can you tell me what time it was, or about what time it was that meeting was called to order?

A. About ten minutes after eight, I think.

Q. The speaking commenced soon after that?

A. Right immediately after that. You mean when the meeting was called to order?

Q. When Spies commenced speaking?

A. Between eight and ten minutes after eight.

Q. Did any speaking take place there the interval Spies was away, when as you understand he was gone to hunt Parsons up--did anybody speak in that interval?

A. I don't believe they did.. I walked over to Randolph and Desplaines street, and stood there a few minutes, and went right back and Spies was on the wagon.

Q. You did not hear anybody speak in that interval?

206 203

A. No sir.

Q. So far as you know the speaking of the evening was uopened up by Spies?

A. Yes sir.

Q. He was the first speaker?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Now, Parsons said the workingman was on the still hunt for eighty-five cents?

A. Not the workingman. He said: "We are on the still hunt for the other eighty-five cents."

Q. Having spoken in the first instance of that fact as shown by the statistics that he had at hand, that the workingman got fifteen cents out of every dollar that they earned?

A. That is what he was talking about.

Q. Then as I understand you he took up the theme of the coal-miners' difficulties in Ohio?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Did he speak of the fact that he had been down the

A. Yes sir.

Q. What did he say as to where he had been and when?

He did not say. He said he had been down through the coal country addressing the coal miners, and that they got on an average for their work, or earned or received twenty four and a half cents a day.

Q. Did he say when he had been down there?

A. No sir.

Q. Did he say when he returned?

A. No sir.

Q. Did he say he had just got back?

A. Not to my recollection.

Q. You didn't hear him say that?

A. No sir.

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Q. Didn't he say in the course of his speech that he had been down to Cincinnati and had on the Sunday previous addressed a meeting in Cincinnati, and had returned to Chicago only that morning?

A. I did not hear him state that.

Q. That Tuesday morning--you did not hear him state that?

A. No sir.

Q. Did you hear him say that at any time during his speech?

A. No sir.

Q. You only remember that he said he had been down among the coal miners, and found that they were making on an average about twenty-four and a half cents a day for the year?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Then he referred to the Chinese?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Did you hear him make any reference to the southwestern strikes and Jay Gould?

A. No sir.

Q. Were you there during the whole time that Parsons was speaking?

A. No sir, I was meandering around through the crowd.

Q. Were you in the crowd during the whole time Parsons was speaking?

A. Yes sir, I was in the crowd, but I would only get my attention fully attracted when he would get in something and throw his voice up very high, seem to become eloquent.

Q. You got you say while Spies was speaking I understood

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within about four feet of the wagon?

A. Yes sir. stood in front of it.

Q. Did you remain there until Spies concluded and introduced Parsons?

A. No sir, I think I went out in the outer verge during the time Mr. Spies introduced Mr. Parsons, and turned right around again turned around to talk to my partner with me.

Q. You had an associate with you that night?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You were going into the crowd and coming out and communicating with one another, and going back to the station there during the evening?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Did you ever get up on the northern edge od the crowd, the edge up towards Lake street?

A. No sir, I did not.

Q. You kept then along around the wagon, and between the wagon and the station?

A. Yes sir.

Q. And upon the border of that part of the crowd to the South and West?

A. The south and west and south and east. I stood down by those boxes quite a while during Parson's speech.

Q. Which boxes do you refer to?

A. Those fish boxes on the east side of the street.

Q. The east sidewalk south of the alley and south of the lamp post?

A. Yes sir.

Q. How much of a crowd was there there upon that sidewalk? in that locality?

A. Well there was more or less during the evening. But there was at one time,

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during Parsons' speech, I should judge about fifty people when I left there.

Q On the sidewalk?

A. Right in that place there, sitting on the boxes, and all through. I did not go back there any more.

Q. You did not go back to that place?

A. No sir.

Q. The crowd immediately about the wagon, I understand you to say, was demonstrative in the expression of approval of the sentiments of the speakers?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Was that characteristic of the crowd all the evening there?

A. The more so there than any other place. On the outer edge of the crowd there was a good mony boys.

Q. There was a joly crowd on the outer edges?

A. Yes sir, people going away and coming in that vicinity of the wagon all the evening.

Q. No fights or disturbances there that evening that you saw?

A. Not a thing.

Q. You have of course been in a great many open air street night meetings in Chicago before?

A. I don't believe I ever attended one before.

Q. This is your first experience?

A. Yes sir.

Q. A man that has been in the detective service as long as you have?

A. I have not been there very long.

Q. How much of Parson's speech do you think you heard alltogether, say by minutes?

A. Well I should have said he

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talked for quite a length of time. I guess between three quarters of an hour and an hour.

Q. How much time did you hear him?

A. I heard him twenty or twenty-five minutes.

Q. Was that consecutively or in broken doses?

A. In broken doses--something between.

Q. When you were in the outer edge you would not hear, and when you came back you heard?

A. Yes sir.

Q. A part of the time listening to him, and a part of the time talking to friends?

A. Watching the people in the crowd.

Q. Also talking with your companions there on duty?

A. Yes sir, we would exchange a word once in a while.

Q. Now, I suppose that since that time, you have talked over those occurrences quite frequently with the officers on duty with you that night?

A. No sir, I did not, not very often. I wrote down my testimony the next day, and after the haymarket meeting kept it in my drawer.

Q. Kept it ever since?

A. Yes sir.

Q. How often have you read that narrative over?

A. I guess about twice since then.

Q. When was the last time you read it?

A. I read a portion of it this morning.

Q. You primed yourself for your present performance?

Objected to. Objection sustained, and exception.

211 208

Q. You read the notes over this morning with a view of your testifying here to-day, did you?

A. To refresh my memory, yes sir.

Q. And in the expectation that you would be called as a witness to-day. You have been notified?

A. I was here yesterday.

Q. You were notified that you would be called to testify this morning?

No sir.

Q. When did you first learn that you would be put on the stand this morning?

A. When I was called from behind the desk.

Q. Have you been in attendance quite regularly?

A. More or less.

Q. How did you happen to look over your notes this morning?

A. I knew it was on a portion of the case where I was to figure, and when it was to be in shape.

Q. You understood the State's case, as the State had arranged it?

A. No sir, I understood it from the standpoint I looked at it.

Q. Do I understand you to say that you have never talked over the occurrences of that evening with your associate officer?

A. Yes we have.

Q. How often have you talked it over with him?

A. Probably half a dozen times. May be a dozen--that is, not talked over the evidence, but talked over it generally.

212 209

Q. I dont mean to say that you sat down and said, "I am going to swear to this, and what are you going to swear to?" I mean talked over the occurrences, went over the history?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Did you hear any of Fielden's talk?

A. Yes sir.

Q How much of his talk did you hear?

A. Very little.

Q. How many minutes do you think?

A. About five.

Q. That was the portion that immediately preceded the explosion of the bomb, was it?

A. No sir.

Q. What portion of his talk did you hear?

A. Where he was talking about the law, telling people to stab it, throttle it or it would throttle them-- that is, meaning his hearers I suppose.

Q. In other words you heard Fielden discussing the subject of legislation as affecting the working or industrial classes?

A. Yes sir, he was criticising Michael Foran.

Q. He spoke specially, in so far as you heard, of something that he said had recently been stated by Foran in reference to legislation?

A. I did not pay much attention to his talk. What I paid attention to was, when he got talking about the law, and the difference between the law for the poor man, the workingman and the rich man--there was no law for the poor man.

Q. You heard him mention Foran's name?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You heard him mention the fact that Foran had stated

213 210

in effect that they could not get any legislation through Congress in favor of the working classes?

A. I did not pay any particular attention to that part, no sir.

Q. You simply mention that Foran's name was mentioned in a general way, and then that Fielden got to talking about the law, and he took the position that the law was made for the rich, and not for the poor?

A. I went over and got a cigar during the interval there, and when I came back Mr. Fielden was talking about the law, and I went to Desplaines street station and reported, then I did not go back to the speakers' stand any more.

Q. Your recollection of his position was that the law was made for the rich and not for the poor, wasn't it?

A. I don't know. I should surmise that from the way he was talking.

Q. And its enactments were in the interest of property and not in the interests of the working man?

A. I don't know anything about that.%

Q. You said that he asked as to whether the law was their friend, as to whether it would open the doors to them, or support them in their struggles, and he said it would not?

A. No sir, I did not understand that at all. What I understood about the law he said, he showed the law, the difference in it between the poor and rich.

Q. What did he say on that subject?

A. He said the law

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did not protect you when you demanded of Mr. McCormick your rights but he said:, "When you went there and demanded your rights of Mr. McCormick, what did the law do? In the shape of the minions of the law, it clubbed you and shot you down." He said: "Working men, if you love your wives, if you love your children, if you love your homes, take the law, kill it, stab it, throttle it, or it will throttle you." After that I went to Desplaines street station and reported to Inspector Bonfield.

Q. Can you tell me just where you stood when the bomb exploded?

A. I stood about fifteen feet north of the north-west corner of Desplaines and Randolph street.

Q. When you speak of the corner of the street, I suppose you mean the outer corner of the sidewalk?

A. Ye sir.

Q. You stood about fifteen feet north of the corner?

A. Of that north side of Randolph street, on the west side of Desplaines.

Q. Then you stood on the sidewalk on Desplaines street, nearly opposite the building line, didn't you, nearly opposite the front of those buildings on Haymarket?

A. I don't answer that question. Show it to me on the map.

Q. Here is the northwest corner and there is the brick building on that corner (pointing on the map)?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Here is the sidewalk, extending out something over

215 212

sixteen feet wide--you say you stood about fifteen feet north?

A. About fifteen feet from the corner of the building on the west side of the sidewalk, near the center of the sidewalk.

Q. Near the center of the sidewalk about fifteen feet north?

A. North of the corner of the building, near the stairs.

Q. How near were you to the foot of the stairs?

A. The foot of the stairs go right up the corner.

Q. From that position I understand you saw the explosion of the bomb?

A. I did not see it. I heard it.

Q. You could only locate it if at all by the sound, and not by sight?

A. Yes sir.

Q. To secure your own safety, where did you go?

A. I got in a door way.

Q. On which side of the building?

A. Not in that building at all. As soon as the bomb exploded, Officers Myers and myself were together, and Myers says: "My God, what is that?" I says: "That is a bomb, we better get out of here", and I got hold of him, and we started towards Desplaines street station, and then there was a car come across at the time, and we got on the other side of the car, and went over on the other side of the street.

Q. You never stopped until you sot on the other side of haymarket?

A. No sir--it did not do me any good I guess.

Testimony of Edgar E. Owen, 1886 July 27. 216 213

EDGAR E. OWEN, a witness called and sworn on behalf of the People was examined in chief by Mr. Grinnell and testified as follows:

Q. What is your name?

A. Edgar E. Owen.

Q. You are a reporter on the Chicago Times?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Where were you on the evening of the 4th day of May?

A. I was at the Haymarket Square from half past seven o'clock until about eleven, in that neighborhood.

Q. Will you give in your own way, and describe what you saw and heard at the Haymarket at that time?

A. I first--

Q. Before the hour of half past seven--where were you at that hour?

A. I was on my way from the office of the Times to the Desplaines street Station.

Q. Did you go to the station?

A. I went to the station.

Q. From there where did you go?

A. I few minutes after-wards I went to what is known as Market Square, Haymarket Square.

That is the broad part of Randolph Street?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Between what streets?

A. Between Desplaines and Halstead.

Q. Will you state what occurred there between Desplaines and Halstead, and what you saw?

A. I saw small crowds gathered on the street corners about the square, and walked around two or three times looking for the meeting, and I saw

217 214

at the corner of Halsted and Randolph streets.

Q. About what time was it you think you saw Mr. Parsons there?

A. It was a little before eight o'clock.

Q. What occurred there?

A. I called after him, and he apparently, or did not want to hear me, and went on. I walked faster and caught up with him, took hold of him and asked him where the meeting was to be held.

Q. Where was he about on the street when you approached?

A. He was very near the street-car track.

Q. How far from Halstead street?

A. It was near the corner.

Q. Right near the corner of Halstead and the Haymarket?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Just state what occurred between yourself and Parsons?

A. He said he didn't know anything about the meeting. I said: "You are going to speak, aren't you?" He said: "No, I am going over to the South side." and Mrs. Parsons and some children came up just then, and Parsons stopped an Indiana street car and he slapped me familiarly on the back and asked me if I was armed and I said "No, have you any dynamite about you?" And he laughed and Mrs. Parsons said: "He is a very dangerous looking man, isn't he?" and they got on the car and went east.

Q. Was there any one with you at that time?

A. I believe Mr. Heineman was with me.

218 215

Q. At that time was there any meeting on Desplaines street north of Randolph?

A. There was not at that time.

Q. Where was the crowd?

A. It was not gathered. There were little groups all about the square at the different corners looking--

Q. On the haymarket?

A. Yes sir.

Q. After Parsons left you what then?

A. I walked on East and met the mayor.

Q. Did you see any of the other defendants at that time?

A. I was standing at the corner of Randolph and Desplaines streets a few minutes after I met the mayor with him and Schwab came up, almost ran into the mayor before he saw him. Immediately on seeing him Schwab turned about and went north on Desplaines street.

Q. At that time was there any meeting on Desplaines street?

A. There was not just at that time.

Q. Where was the crowd then?

A. The largest part of it was on the square.

Q. What then occurred?

A. I went to the station with the mayor and one or two other reporters, and was gone about five minutes. As I came back up Desplaines street, the crowd was pushing up on Desplaines north of Randolph.

Q. Coming from what direction?

A. From the west.

Q. From what street?

A. On Randolph street.

Q. From the haymarket?

A. Yes sir.

219 216

Q Then where did you go?

A. Then I went up into the crowd to the middle of Desplaines Street north of Randolph, and I found Mr. Spies talking at the time.

Q Now, just give us what he said as near as you can recollect it?

A. He was saying something about the trouble at McCormick's, about his having made a speech there, and having been interrupted. And stated that a reporter in some morning paper had said for Mr. McCormick or Mr. McCormick had said through the papers, that Spies was responsible for the trouble at McCormick's and for the killing of men there, and that if McCormick had said any such thing he was a liar; that McCormick was himself responsible. The crowd made some derisive remarks at that. I believe it was to the effect that McCormick ought to be hung or thrown into the lake.

Q. What was the temper of the crowd there near the wagon during Mr. Spies' speech?

A Well, they cheered rather wildly just about the wagon. The outside of the crowd seemed to be mere curiosty seekers.

Q Do you remember anything further that Mr. Spies said in his speech--were you assigned, or was it any part of your duty to report speeches there?

A No sir.

Q You were not there for that purpose?

A No sir.

Q Do you recollect any more of the speech Mr. Spies made?

220 217

A I don't recall anything now.

Q You made no notes?

A No sir.

Q What followed after Mr. Spies got through?

A Mr. Parsons talked for nearly three quarters of an hour. He began with comments upon some congressional report of labor statistics, and made an argument that the capitalists took all the money that the working man made. He described a meeting held the previous Sunday I believe at Cincinnati at which he talked, and said that the militia there marched through the streets behind the bearers of the red flag; that the red flag was at the top and at the head of everything, and that the capitalistic press was very silent in regard to the matter. Of course no one would ever hear of it in Chicago without he should tell them, that the capitalistic press never made any mention of the fact.

Q Did you hear the latter part of his remarks?

A I can not relate just all the sense of his argument, but I know that towards the finish he made a sort of dramatic cry, "To arms, to arms, to arms."

Q What did the crowd respond to that, if anything? What was the effect on the crowd?

A Those about the wagon were enthusiastic and hurrahed, yelled out: "Hang Jay Gould and hang McCormick, shoot the police"--something to that effect.

Q Do you remember anything further of the speeches?

221 218

A I do not.

Q What occurred then after Mr. Parsons got through?

A Fielden then spoke for some time.

Q Give us his language as near as you can?

A I had been in the middle of the street up to about that time, and I went up on an iron stair-way in order to rest.

Q Where abouts was it?

A It is on the west side of Desplaines Street nearly opposite the wagon.

Q Did you see any one there on the stair-way that you know?

A I saw another reporter.

Q What was his name?

A Hull.

Q Paul Hull?

A Yes.

Q When did you go up there with reference to the speaking?

A About the time Fielden commenced to talk.

Q Where abouts on the stairway did you go?

A At the top.

Q What did you hear of Fielden's speech?

A I heard him say that the working men could never obtain their rights through legislation and cited the case of Martin Foran of Pennsylvania, who had acknowledged that the working men could obtain nothing through legislation, and the speaker denounced the working men as fools for sending such men to Congress. That the only way to obtain their rights was to take matters into their own hands.

Q Do you remember anything further of that speech, do you

222 219

remember whether he said anything on the subject of the law or not?

A I did not wait until he was through speaking. I left there and went to the police station a few minutes before ten o'clock.

Q Then what occurred?

A About the time that I arrived at the station I saw the police coming out, marching out, and I ran back ahead of them and went back to the stairway up to the top of the stairway.

Q Describe what occurred from that time on? That you yourself saw

A Well, I saw the police coming up and I heard some one give an order to the crowd. I could not understand the words. I was not paying close attention.. Then I noticed Fielden get off the wagon, I thought he jumped off, and at that same moment I heard a sort of fiendish defiant cry, and instantly the bomb exploded. I didn't see anything but the fire going up in the street.

Q You didn't see the bomb in the air at all?

A No sir. at the same instant there was a great many policemen fell upon the ground in the centre. Those about stood their ground; and I had been hit the same instant in the legand I ran down the stairway in order to get out of the way of danger if I could.

Q Do you know what struck you?

A Well, from the nature of the wound, and from others opinions I concluded it was a spent ball.

223 220

Q When were you struck in relation to the firing of the bomb?

A It was almost simultaneous. I could not distinguish whether it was. It seemed to me it must have been before, because as soon as the bomb exploded I ran.

Q Had you felt the injury before the explosion.

A I felt a tingling sensation in my leg.

Q You were on the west side of the street?

A Yes sir.

Q In what direction from the wagon?

A Almost opposite the alley, the landing of the stairway--the top landing.

CROSS EXAMINATION, By Mr. Black.

Q I understand you were on the top platform of that iron stairway at that time?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you remember what direction you were facing?

A I was facing about east.

Q Fecing then right towards the alley?

A Yes sir.

Q You say that you were not paying much attention at the time that you heard some order, that you supposed was an order of dispersal. What were you doing if not paying attention to what transpired?

A I was noticing more the movements of the crowd and police. I was a little excited myself.

Q Did you have to mkae a footrace in order to keep ahead

224 221

of the police from the station and get up on your perch?

A No sir, I stopped on the way once, the middle of Randolph Street and spoke with some special policeman.

Q Did you go rapidly or slowly in coming from the Desplaines Street station to the platform where you stood?

A I went rapidly enough to get ahead of the police. They had a little the start. I was up in the station when they started out.

Q When you started on your march, had all three divisions formed at that time?

A I think so. The head of them had passed the entrance to the station going north.

Q Did you see how many divisions had formed, and how many divisions were in the street at that time?

A No sir, I did not notice.

Q Did you have any conversation with any person at the station on that occasion?

A I think not, none others than fellow-reporters perhaps.

Q The fact is, you walked down there in your excitement seeing the police were in the street and coming, and you immediately returned and retraced your steps?

A Yes sir.

Q You say just at the moment when you saw Fielden jump down off of the wagon, you heard a sort of fiendish, defiant cry?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you locate the source from whence that came?

A I

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knew it came from the direction of the wagon.

Q What experience with fiendish cries have you that enables you to use that comparison--you don't mean that you have been there, do you?

Mr: Grinnell: What does that mean?

Mr. Black: I want to know how a man knows what a fiendish cry is.

The Witness: The cry of a fiend I should say was a fiendish cry.

Q Are you familiar with the cry of fiends?

A That is, the way it appeared to me.

Q You were excited at the time?

A I was, somewhat.

Q It came from the direction of the wagon you say?

A Yes sir.

Q Is that as fully as you can locate it?

A I think it is.

Q Did it come from the wagon?

A I can't tell you.

Q But from over in that direction, between you and the wagon somewhere came that cry?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you remember what that cry was--was it any articulate word?

A I could not understand any articulate sound.

Q Was it very loud?

A It was much above the average voice.

Q Are you just certain as to the time of that cry, I

226 223

one of the reporters speaks of the howl of defiance and despair, and as you use the word defiant, you are talking about the same thing that he heard after the crowd scattered?

The Court: There is not anything of that sort in any testimony. There was something read from the newspaper, something of that sort, but there was no testimony of that sort.

Mr. Black: Well, all right, if your Honor chooses to be as it seems hypocritical.

Q What I am after is to find out the time of that cry if you can't fix it positively?

A I looked at my watch as soon after the affair was over as I dared to look at it, and I believe the time of the explosion of the bomb was about ten minutes after ten o'clock.

Q With reference to the explosion of the bomb, how long was that cry, before or after that explosion?

A It was immediately preceeding the explosion.

Q You don't remember any word being spoken?

A No sir.

Q Nothing articulate that you could remember?

A No sir, not that I can remember.

Q Simply a cry that you describe as fiendish and defiant?

A Yes sir.

Q What was there about that cry that struck you as defiant?

227 224

Do you know the difference between a defiant cry and any other kind of cry?

A Some others might use a better adjective perhaps.

Q It is in reference to the choice of adjectives that I am inquiring.

A That expresses my opinion as near as I can.

Q In other words, in the language of common mortals, it was, a loud cry?

A That would not express it as it appeared to me.

Q But as I said, you were somewhat excited at that time?

A Not so excited but that I knew enough to write a readable description of the event?

Q Did you write it then and there?

A I did not.

Q You fojnd a convenient place, and wrote up a description shortly afterwards for publication?

A Yes sir, I did.

Q When and where did you write that description?

A At the office of the Times.

Q Do you remember whether in that description this "fiendish, defiant cry" figured?

A I do not. I have not looked it over since the day after I guess.

Q You don't remember whether the selection of adjectives was made at the moment or whether it is made now?

A I do not.

Q Do you know as to the direction from where you stood that the bomb fell?

A Well, it was possibly a little

228 225

to my south. It was almost directly opposite.

Q And the wagon stood a little to the north of east?

A A little to the left of where I stood.

Q Now, did this cry that you speak of come from the neighborhood of where the bomb fell?

A No sir, it was before the bomb fell.

Q How long before the bomb fell, or do you mean the bomb exploded?

A When it exploded, yes sir.

Q How long before the explosion of the bomb was this cry that you heard?

A Only a few seconds.

Q Seconds may be of importance sometimes. How many seconds?

A I never timed horses.

Mr. Grinnell: It is a difficult matter to state the time.

The Court: (Q) What is your impression about the difference of time between the explosion and the cry?

A A quarter of a minute perhaps.

Q Fifteen seconds that would be?

A Possibly not so. long.

Q According to your best recollection, was it as much as ten seconds before the explosion of the bomb that you heard this cry?

A It might have been.

Q Somewhere from ten to fifteen?

A I am not accustomed to timing by seconds.

Q Did you hear the command to halt when the column came to a stand near the wagon?

A I did not notice it, no.

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Q Did you hear so as to be able to distinguish the exhortation or command of Captain Ward to the crowd?

A No sir.

Q Did you hear Fielden say anything in response thereto?

A No sir.

Q The things that impressed you, as I understand you, and the only things that impressed you were at that moment the explosion of the bomb, the cry which you say immediately preceded it a few seconds, and the fact that you felt a tingling sensation in your leg at that time?

A Yes sir.

Q How soon after that did you take your departure from the platform?

A I left immediately after the explosion of the bomb.

Q Do you think that cry you heard was made by a man?

A I do.

Q Have you any definite idea as to where the man stood who made that outcry?

A I have not, only off in the direction of off across the street, in the neighborhood of the wagon.

Q You have talked with other people about these occurrences since, haven't you?

A Some.

Q Have you ever found one that noticed that outcry you have spoken of?

A I don't know that I have.

Q Now, you say you judge you were hit by a spent ball. What was the character of the wound that was made?

A It was

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a round abrasion in the flesh, sort of dent, fully deep enough to cause the blood to flow slightly.

Q But the flesh was not lacerated specially, was it?

A No sir.

Q And you did not find the bullet or whatever it was itself that made the wound, did you?

A No sir, it did not break the clothing.

Q Did not cut through the clothing?

A No sir.

Q No hole in the clothing?

A No sir.

Q Can you tell when you felt that strike or blow, whatever it was with reference to the outcry you have spoken of?

A Well, I can't distinguish whether it was at the same instant, or before or after. Everything was in a moment there. I know as soon as I realized or fancied the possible dangers of the surroundings, that I got out of there as fast as I could.

Q Did the shot strike you, assuming for the purpose of this question that it was a shot, before or after you heard the noise of the explosion of the bomb?

A I think it was, it seems to me quite positively that it was before the noise of the explosion.

Q In connection with it did you hear any pistol shot from any source or direction?

A I don't know that I did.

Q You heard no shot or sound of a shot preceding the explosion of the bomb that night, did you, at the Haymarket

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meeting?

A I can't sweat whether I did or not.

Q Do you remember whether or not you heard any sound of a shot at any time, at the time you heard this outcry?

A I heard the explosion of the bomb and pistol shots almost simultaneous with the outcry.

Q You don't mean to say the pistol shots preceded the bomb?

A I don't know which was first.

Q You don't know which was first?

A No sir, the pistol shots came from the side of the street, both sides.

Q Both sides of the street?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you see them?

A I could hear them. I was standing in such a position - the police were right below me.

Q The question is, did you see any pistol shots from the street sides, and pistol flashes?

A I could see flashes on the opposite side;

Q Whereabouts on the opposite side did you see any flahes of pistol shots?

A Near the alley.

Q When was that with reference to the explosion of the bomb?

A As I have said before, it was all simultaneous, and I did not wait there to see just how matters were running from the first minute.

Q How many seconds do you think you stood on that platform after the bomb exploded, or after you leard the explosion of the bomb?

A Possibly ten seconds.

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Q But you can't tell whether you felt the concussion of your leg before or after you heard the explosion of the bomb?

A I cannot.

Q You are certain of the fact that the out cry you speak of preceded the explosion of the bomb?

A I feel quite confident of it.

Q Is that a matter of independent recollection as to the time when you heard that out cry, or is it a matter of conclusion as you have thought the matter over?

A Well, I have thought the matter over, but it is independent recollection as I put it.

Q Did that cry have the character of pain?

A No sir, the first cry did not have the character of pain. Immediately after it, there were a great many cries of agony and of pain.

Q The first cry you don't think had that character?

A No sir.

Q Did you notice who was sitting on the wagon at any time during the evening, north of the wagon from which the speaking was going on?

A No sir.

Q Did you get anywheres near that wagon during the course of the wagon?

A I was about twenty feet from the speakers' wagon.

Q On which side of the speakers' wagon were you when you were twenty feet away from it?

A To the south and the

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middle of the street.

Q So that you did not get around north of the wagon or in the neighborhood of the wagon that stood north of the speakers' truck?

A No sir.

Q About what time did that meeting commence, that is, what was your first observation of it?

A Well I think it was about twenty minutes of nine o'clock.

Q When you first noticed it?

A Yes, sir.

Q And Spies was then speaking?

A Yes sir.

Q And he had got started before you reached or got within hearing distance, hadn't he?

A Yes sir, before I was near enough to understand the language.

Q Did you notice your timepiece at that time?

A No sir.

Q Or about the time?

A I had shortly before, I believe.

Q Do you remember what was the last time which you noticed upon your watch before you heard Spies speaking, what o'clock it was?

A I believe the last time I looked at my watch it was about half past eight.

Q It was after that you heard Spies speak?

A Yes sir.

Q When Spies spoke of the McCormick matter, and the crowd cried out "Hang him" or something to that effect, did you notice what Spies responded to that?

A I can't remember anything definitely in regard to it.

Q You don't remember whether he dissented to that, or made

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any suggestion against that or not?

A No sir.

Q How near were you to Spies at that time?

A Not over thirty feet, I guess.

Q When did you see Schwab last that night?

A On the corner of Desplaines and Randolph Street, when I was standing with the Mayor and some other gentlemen.

Q About what o'clock was that with reference to the time when you say you looked at your watch at half past eight--was it before or after that?

A It was before that, I think;

Q Did you see Schwab any time that evening on the speakers wagon?

A No sir, I did not distinguish him.

Q Did you see him taking a car that evening eastward bound?

A No sir.

Q I mean during the evening, I mean during that evening when you were there taking observations?

A I did not see him any other time than the one I stated.

Q You say before the meeting you met Parsons, and Parsons told you he was not going to speak, and was going over on the south side?

A Yes sir.

Q He was at that time accompanied by whom?

A Mrs. Parsons.

Q Anybody else?

A And I think two children.

Q When did you next see Parsons?

A When he was talking on the wagon.

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Q How long was that after you and he parted when he took the car going east?

A Well, it was more than an hour.

Q How long, by the way, have you been acquainted with Parsons?

A Three or four years, longer perhaps.

Q Have you any personal acquaintance with Mrs. Parsons, or did you simply know her by sight?

A I merely knew her from having met het at different gatherings.

Q Do you remember whether any other lady was in company with Mrs. Parsons or with Parsons?

A I did not see any.

Q Didn't you see Mrs. Holmes with her, of the party?

A No sir.

Q Getting on that car at that time?

A No sir.

Q There was some cheering at the time of this out cry, calling for the hanging of Jay Gould, wasn't there, while Parsons was speaking?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you remember what Parsons responded to that suggestion of "hang Jay Gould"?

A I believe it was he that said something to the effect that it was useless to make idle cries, when they wanted to do anything that they must go to work and do it.

Q Do you remember whether or not he said in effect this: "No that socialism don't aim at the life of individuals, but at the system, and that it would do no good to hang Jay Gould, but that another and perhaps a hundred would

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come up after him?

A I feel quite confident he did not use that language.

Q The question is as to the idea, whether he said that in substance?

A Well, I don't remember the sentiment.

Q How much of Parsons' talk did you hear?

A I believe I heard his entire speech.

Q But you don't remember his saying anything of that kind?

A No sir.

Q Anything of that nature?

A Not to recall it.

Q Making any such response as that to the suggestion "Hang Jay Gould?

A I don't recall it.

Q Do you preserve a pretty vivid recollection of the speeches that night or not?

A Only of certain points in the different speeches.

Q Certain particular things which you have already singled out?

A Yes sir.

Q Now, during this speaking, there was more or less of applauding, wasn't there?

A Yes, immediately about the wagon.

Q Was the proportion of people who applauded out of the entire audience a large or small proportion?

A Well, it did not include more than half of the entire crowd according to my judgment.

Q Is not it a fact that comparatively few of the people who were in the crowd did join in the applause to any ex

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A Well, I did not pay close enough attention to state positively, but it appeared to me that about half the crowd joined in.

Q Did you write the account which appeared in the Times? the next morning?

A The first part of it.

Q The first part you wrote?

A Yes sir.

Q I will call your attention for the purpose of refreshing your recollection to a certain part of that, and ask you whether you wrote that particular part, and if so, just look at that portion right along there--that is the expression (shows witness Times of May 5th). The paper I now call your attention to is a copy of the Times of May 5th, part of that paper?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you recognize the portion of the paper I called your attention to as having been written by you?

A Yes sir.

Q Having called your attention to it, let me ask you whether or not according to your recollection the applauders were comparatively a small portion of the entire audience or not, comparatively few in other words, and let me ask you whether you wrote in your description for publication next morning these words: "Those in the crowd of two thousand who joined on the cheering were comparatively few in numbers?

A It is in the part of the report I wrote.

Q You wrote that, did you?

A Yes sir.

Q You don't mean to say that a reporter ever makes a

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misstatement?

A Not intentionally.

Q Was that correct or not?

A It may have been correct.

Q According to your best recollection, was it or was it not correct?

A I should judge that my statement just now was nearer correct.

Q Then that?

A Yes sir.

Q You say now that not over half joined in the cheering?

A Not over half, possibly not that many.

Q How did you come to go that meeting that night?

A I was assigned to the meeting by my city editor.

Q Had you received any call for that meeting?

A I was shown the copy of a circular.

Q What became of the copy that you saw?

A I don't know; it was left in the office, and I believe that the words of it were printed in the Times of the next morning.

Q Did you yourself take a copy of it, if you remember?

A No sir, I did not.

Q But you saw what you believed to be a correct copy in the paper the next morning?

A I did not look it through; I supposed it was the same.

Q I will ask you to look at this copy, for the purpose of refreshing your recollection, and will ask you whether or not the copy of the circular which you saw closed with, or had in it anywhere the expression: "Workingmen, come armed and in full force".

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Objected to.

The Court: What his recollection is as to the copy of the circular, he may state. There is no reasonable ground to suppose that the copy he saw is preserved. There is no evidence showing that it was.

Mr.Grinnell: There is no evidence on that at all. The circular is entirely new matter.

The Court: As to his recollection of the circular he can state.

The Witness: I don't now remember the circular calling the meeting. I thought it was the revenge circular.

Mr. Salomon: (Q) Did you say you stood on the stairs opposite the alley?

A Yes sir.

Q The head of the stairs opposite the alley?

A I did.

Q There are only one pair of stairs there?

A I guess that is all.

Q Are these the stairs you refer to (pointing on diagram)?

A Yes sir.

Q This is the alley you refer to?

A Yes sir.

The Court: (Q) That is, this was the stairway of the iron works?

A I think it is Metzner hardware.

Mr. Salomon: (Q) Do you know how far back the platform extends from the front of the building which fronts on Randolph Street?

A I don't know; I should think about thirty feet, perhaps.

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Q Do you know how far back the alley is from the corner of Randolph Street?

Mr. Walker: It is ninety feet, the scale shows that.

Q I understand you to say you saw the shots after the bomb exploded, you saw a volley?

A Yes sir.

Q Will you describe where that came from?

A I saw them particularly from the cast side of the street.

Q Had the police fired at that time?

A They had not.

Objected to as not proper re-direct examination.

Testimony of W. C. Metzner, 1886 July 27. 240 237

W. C. METZNER, a witness called and sworn on behalf of the People, was examined in chief by Mr. Grinnell and testified as follows:

Q What is your name?

A W.C.Metzner.

Q Where do you live?

A 125 West Randolph Street:

Q What is your business?

A Jobber in stoves and stove repairs.

Q Where?

A 125 and 127 West Randolph St.

Q In reference to Desplaines St., where is that store?

A It is on the northwest corner of Desplaines and Randolph.

Q Were you at the Haymarket square, and did you see any of the transactions on the night of the 4th of May?

A Very little of it.

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Q The next morning, did you make any investigation or examination of the street?

A Yes sir.

Q How early in the morning?

A Seven o'clock.

Q Did you see the bomb explode the night before?

A No sir.

Q You may step down here to this map and tell us where and what you found on the street the next morning?

Objected to.

The Court: He may state the condition he found the street in without expressing any opinion as to the causes.

The Witness: I found an opening in the pavement, located somewhat on the west side of Desplaines Street, slightly north from the alley.

Q What do you mean by north from the alley--- north from the north line of the alley or the south line?

A The south line.

Q Towards the west?

A Towards the west.

Q Describe what you saw?

A It was a hole about four inches in diameter at the top, and about three to three and a half inches deep, and another hole about an inch and a half to two inches, sort of egg-shaped, about a foot from the other.

Q What was the appearance of those holes as to whether they had been recently made?

A They had the appearance as though they were caused by an explosion of dynamite or

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gun-powder.

The Court: (Q) What is the material of the surface there?

A It is a cedar block pavement.

Mr.Grinnell: (Q) Where was the wagon that night from which the speakers spoke?

A The elevation that the speakers stood on I could not see from the position that I was. I presume that the platform or wagon, whatever it was that they stood on was duly opposite the shop door of Crane Bros. factory.

Q Show it on the map, see if you can point it out on the map?

A (Witness here points on map.) Right there.

Q Nearly opposite those steps?

A yes sir, nearly opposite.

Cross Examination by Mr. Black.

Q You examined the street I understand the next morning?

A Yes sir.

Q About what o'clock?

A About seven o'clock.

Q Now, will you tell me again what indications you found upon the street which attracted your attention?

A It was an opening into the pavement about four to four and a half or five inches across at the top, and kind of diamond shaped downwards to the depth of about three and a half to four and a half inches.

Q Was that in one of the wooden blocks, or in the interstices

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between the wooden blocks?

A It seemed to be between three blocks.

Q Where the filling had apparently been blown out?

A Yes sir.

Q How far from that principal hole that you found, did you discover any hole in the pavement?

A About one foot to the east.

Q One foot east?

A Yes sir.

Q What was the size or character of that hole or depression?

A That was about two inches across, about the depth of one inch.

Q Were these two holes that you found on opposite sides of one large block in the pavement?

A No sir.

Q How many blocks were between them?

A Probably two, two and a half, somewheres there abouts.

Q Did the two blocks that stood between these two depressions fit closely together, or were they separated to any extent?

A I misunderstood that question.

Q Did the two blocks or more that stood in the pavement between these two depressions that you have described, stand close together or were they separated?

A The rest of them, the outer surface from the main hole seemed to be perfectly natural.

Q The surface around the main hole seemed to be perfectly

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natural?

A The blocks on the outside of the hole.

Q How deep was the minor hole that you speak of that was to the east of the major hole?

A About an inch.

Q About how wide across the top?

A About two to two and a half inches.

Q What were the indication about that which led you to think it presented the appearance of a hole blown out by powder or dynamite?

A Well, from the appearance of wood which I saw before which was destroyed by powder and dynamite, I should infer such was the case.

Q Have you seen many instances or cases where wood or other material has been affected by the use of dynamite?

A Yes sir.

Q You have been familiar with its use?

A With powder?

Q I am speaking of dynamite.

A No sir.

Q This was your first observation of supposed dynamite?

A Yes sir.

Q You have been familiar with the explosion of powder, and this was like the explosion you seen with powder?

A Yes sir.

Q Were there others with you at the time you were attempting to locate the fall of the bomb or the position of the bomb?

A No sir.

Q You were alone at that time?

A Yes sir.

Q Had the wagons been passing back and forth over the

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street at the time you made your observation?

A There had been various wagons passing there at that time.

Q Had any passed in the immediate proximity of the place where you found these holes?

A That was difficult for me to say.

Q As to the location of these holes, I understand you it is a little west of the center of the street, and a little north of the Crane Bros. alley projection?

A Yes sir.

Q What was the condition of that pavement at that place?

A The condition was good.

Q Is that its condition now of the pavement along on your east front there, in good condition?

A Yes sir, that location.

Q There are holes in the pavement where it is broken down more or less, are there not?

A Some.

Q How many other holes, if you remember, did you find in the street near or within a few feet north or south from these two holes that you have spoken of?

A There was none.

Q None of this character, you mean?

A No sir.

Q These were two of a special description that attracted your attention? You were there trying to locate the position where the bomb fell?

A Naturally taking an interest.

Q You were trying to station yourself where the bomb fell?

A Yes sir.

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Mr. Black: That is all.

Mr. Grinnell: (Q) What was the condition of that hole that you examined there, as to whether it was smooth or ragged?

A It was a hole which had all the appearance as though there had been an explosion of powder.

Q Jagged?

A Jagged to a certain extent.

Testimony of Henry E. O. Heinemann (second appearance), 1886 July 27. 246 243

HENRY E. O. HEINEMANN, recalled by the People, was examined by Mr. Grinnell and testified as follows:

Q You have been on the stand before?

A Yes sir.

Q You are a newspaper reporter?

A Yes sir.

Q On the Chicago Tribune?

A Yes sir.

Q Some years ago you were a reporter on the Arbeiter Zeitung?

A Yes sir.

Q Were you at the Haymarket square on May 4th?

A Yes, sir.

Q What time did you get there?

A I got there a little after half past seven.

Q Whom of the defendants, if any of them, did you see there?

A I met Mr. Parsons and Mr. Schwab before the meeting began.

Q What time in the day or afternoon was it you saw Schwab?

A It was in the evening, about eight o'clock.

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maybe a few minutes before.

Q Where did you see Parsons?

A I met Parsons at the corner of Halsted and Randolph.

Q How came you to be there at Halsted and Randolph?

A I was going around the Haymarket proper. There was a large crowd on all the sidewalks, and I went around through the crowd to see what was going on, trying to find where the meeting was going to be.

Q Did you make inquiries as to where the meeting was to be?

A I don't remember that I did.

Q Did you make inquiries of anybody as to who were the speakers conducting the meeting?

A. I did not.

Q Did you see Balthazar Rau?

A I met Rau there, yes, sir.

Q What time did you see him?

A That must have been between eight and half past, I think.

Q What did he say about where the meeting was to be held, under whose auspices?

Objected to.

The Court: I don't see how that is material.

Mr. Grinnell: There has been some testimony tending to show this was an internationalish meeting, that it was a meeting of the anarchists so-called, perhaps the Central Labor Union specially of the International Workingmen's Association of America here in Chicago; and it is in testimony

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that Rau is one of the internationalists, and the other defendants and perhaps all of them are members of that association. Rau was there, and I want to prove the declarations of Rau as to whether or not it was the Internationalists holding that meeting that night, whether it was under their auspices.

The Court: I don't think that will do.

Mr. Grinnell: (Q) Did you attend the meeting during the entire evening?

A Yes sir.

Q Where were you standing?

A I stood west of the speakers' wagon, a little more than half way across the street.

Q Where were you when that bomb exploded?

A At that time I was on the east sidewalk of Desplaines Street, between Crane's alley and Randolph, about half way.

Q Did you look back?

A I was going south, and I kept looking back at what was going on.

Q Did you see the bomb in the air or at the time it exploded?

A I saw the bomb rise out of the crowd and fall among the police; that is, I didn't distinguish the bomb, but I saw the burning fuse.

Q From what locality on the sidewalk, with reference to that alley that runs into Crane's was it that you saw this bomb rising out of the crowd?

A It was very nearly the southeast corner of the alley.

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Q Did you hear the speeches there that night?

A Yes, sir.

Q Beginning with Spies?

A Yes sir, heard all of them.

Q Parsons and Fielden?

A And Fielden.

Q You left in reference to the coming up of the police, or in reference to the explosion of that bomb, how long before, that is, I understand you were in the street, and went over on that sidewalk and went south.

A I was west of the speakers' wagon, and I saw the police form in front of the station, because I could see them distinctly because of the electric light on the Lyceum Theater was behind them; and when they came up, the crowd divided in front of them, and a great many went to the east sidewalk, and I went along to the east sidewalk so as not to be caught between the police and the crowd, and I walked slowly south, and kept turning back to see what was going on.

Q Was there any firing so far as you heard before the bomb exploded?

A I didn't hear any shots before the bomb exploded.

Q How soon after the explosion of the bomb was it before shots were heard?

A I could not measure the time at all.

Q Almost instantly.

A Almost instantly.

Q Can you say from whom the shots came first, from the police or the crowd?

A That I could not say. It seems

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to me as if I heard some bullets in pretty close proximity to myself, that is, coming from the north.

Q Whizzing from the north?

A Yes sir.

Q You were going south?

A I was going south, yes sir.

Q Were you there in fact to report speeches, or was that left to Mr.English?

A It was not left to him entirely. In these meetings we always expected some German speeches, and I was expected to take the German speeches, and he took the English.

Q You are German?

A Yes sir.

Q State as nearly as you can, what you heard Spies say. If you cannot give his language, give in your own language the sentiments that he uttered?

A He started out by saying that the meeting was intended to be a peaceable one, was not called to raise a disturbance, and then gave his version of the affair at McCormiek's the day before. He said he had been down there, and had addressed a meeting, and that some people had tried to prevent him from speaking because he was a socialist, but that he finished his speech; and when he got through, and was going down town again, somebody told him that there was a riot in progress at McCormick's, that the police were shooting and killing the men down there. I don't know whether he said that he made any reply. At all events he came down town, and the next morning saw the statement of the affair in the morning papers

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which he declared to be strongly colored, and he referred particularky to a statement made by Mr.McCormick in which he was charged with the responsibility for the blood shed.

Mr. Zeisler: (Q) Spies was?

A Spies was charged with it, yes sir, and Mr.Spies said that he was not to blame, but that Mr.McCormick was to blame for the riot and the blood shed; and if he said that Spies was to blame for it, that he lied, or was a liar, or something of that sort.

Q What was the temper of that crowd?

A The crowd where I stood---that is pretty near the speakers' wagon---was in sympathy with the speakers, and it seemed to me that the speakers knew that the men in the crowd near the wagon knew just what the speakers would say; had heard them very often, and were entirely in sympathy with them.

Q Any cheering?

A Occasional applause, yes.

Q Talking among the crowd, was there Germans talking in the crowd?

A Yes sir, I heard a few Germans talk. I heard one of those standing close to me explaining and translating some of the remarks that the speakers made--I don't know whether it was Spies or Parsons.

Q What did Parsons say at that meeting?

A Parsons I heard repeat some statistic that I had heard him speak about before; that out of every dollar that was produced by the laborers, they only got fifteen cents, whereas the remaining eighty-five cents went to the wholesale and retail

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dealers and the manufacturers; and the eight hour movement he says: "is a still hunt for the remaining eighty-five cents". That seemed to be a standing phrase with him, as I had heard him use it before.

Q What did he say about arming or force?

A About arming;towards the close of his speech I heard him call, "To arms, to arms, to arms".

Q What was the effect on the crowd?

A There were some responses to his speech occasionally.

Q How much of Fielden's speech did you hear?

A I heard all of it I think, except a few sentences immediately preceding the arrival of the police.

Q Did you hear the police say anything about the dispersing of the meeting?

A No sir, when the police came up I heard a general uproar and I could not distinguish any voices at all, except later on, after the bomb exploded. I heard the command to "Fall in". It was given in a very loud voice. I could not distinguish anything else at that time.

Q What did you hear Fielden say that night?

A I dont remember very much of his speech.

Q Did you hear him say anything about the law?

A Yes, sir, towards the end of his speech, he advised the crowd present to kill the law, to stab it, to throttle it, or else it would throttle them. That was nothing--

Q (Interrupting) You were formerly an Internationalist?

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A Yes sir.

Q When did you cease your connection with it?

Mr. Salomon: This is a different matter you are going into now. It is irrelevant what Mr.Heinemann has been and where he has been or what organization he belonged to and when he ceased his connection with it.

The Court: Yes, that is material to this case. That is admissible.

Defendants then and there excepted to the ruling of the court.

Q When did you cease your connection with the Internationalists?

A About two years ago.

Q Who of the defendants do you know belonging to that association or society, before you left it?

A Of my own personal knowledge of course, I don't know any one but only upon common reputation.

Q Among the society?

A Among the society.

Q Whom?

Objected to.

A Yes, I know one of them.

The Court: If he has met them at any meetings or any of them had told him, that would be admissible, but what the common understanding is, would not be.

The Witness: I know one of them by my own personal knowledge, that is Neebe. At that time he used to belong

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to the same group I belonged to. It is not in existence now.

Mr. Grinnell: Did you ever meet in any of the groups of the Internationalists, any of the other defendants?

A I met Spies and Schwab occasionally. I don't know whether I met Parsons until afterward, when I went to a meeting of the American group occasionally for the Tribune. I heard Parsons and saw him there I think, once or twice.

Q You ceased your connection with them two years ago?

A Yes sir.

Q Was that about the time or immediately after the time that Herr Most delivered lectures in this city?

A It was immediately after it.

Q And on account of it?

A Yes sir, on account of it.

Q Whom did you see on that wagon that night?

A I saw the speakers, that is, Spies, Parsons and Fielden, and at one time I saw Rudolph Schnaubelt whom I knew from my former connections with the Internationalists. I think that is all I can remember.

Recess until two o'clock.

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Court met at 2 P.M., July 27, 1886.

Cross Examination of

HENRY E.O.HEINEMANN,

Mr. Foster: (Q) Mr. Heinemann, these bullets that you heard whizz, could you tell which direction they came from?

A They came from the north.

Q So that this (snapping fingers), the whizz, is all that you know?

A Well, they came past me from the north, that is all that I can say.

Q Well, how do you know that they came from the north; could you tell from the whizz?

A I could tell that from the sound.

Q You could tell it from the sound. Now, you at that time were further south than the police?

A Yes sir.

Q So that if any of the front ranks of police had been shooting up and down--well, you were further south than the police?

A I was further south, yes.

Q At this meeting you say Spies introduced his speech by stating that this wasn't a meeting for the purpose of raising a disturbance?

A That is my recollection, yes.

Q And you further said that shortly after Parsons was introduced?

A Yes; he made a shorter speech than Spies did.

Q Yes. Then Mr.Parsons stepped on the stand and went over

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the same speech that you heard him go over and over, going into a thousand facts and figures in regard to laboring men, and how much the laboring men got, etc?

A That is Parsons, yes.

Q Now, how was his speech as to being tumultuous or mild, considering the fact that it was an out--door meeting and that there was a large audience there, compared with his other speeches?

A Compared with his other speeches?

Q Yes.

Mr. Grinnell: We object to the last part of your question.

Mr. Foster; Strike out about his other speeches.

The Court: As to his manner, that is susceptible only of description; as to his language, why, that has to be repeated, or the substance.

Mr. Foster: (Q) How was his manner as to being loud or quiet, taking into consideration the fact that it was an out-door meeting, and also the character of the audience and the size, that he was addressing?

A Well, apart from the contents of his speech, I didn't notice anything remarkable--anything unusual, excited or so.

Q No sir. Then you say there was occasional responses-- applause?

A Yes sir.

Q Now, what he did say there was this, was it not, after hearing his figures and the presentation of his facts, which you say you had heard before, he stated that the laboring men

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got only fifteen per cent of what they earned, didn't he?

A I may be mistaken in the figures but I think that is what he said.

Q And he said that the eight hour movement was a still hunt after the other eighty-five per cent?

A Yes sir.

Q Now, Mr. Fielden, spoke after Mr. Parsons did?

A Yes, sir.

Q Were you there until after the conclusion of Mr. Fielden's speech?

A I missed about two or three sentences just before the police came up.

Q I understand that you were listening to all these speeches?

A Yes sir.

Q Also, you didn't intend to report them but you heard them just the same as if you had intended to report them, and with the same care as you would if you intended to report them?

A Well, I don't know as I heard them with the same care.

Q Well, you listened?

A Yes, I listened.

Q You say that Schnaubelt was part of the time on the wagon; do you remember of a cloud coming from the west about that time of night?

A From the north?

Q From the north?

A Yes sir.

Q Now, as a matter of fact, a large quantity of the crowd had dispersed before the conclusion of the meeting on account of that cloud?

A I think they did; I think the

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crowd began to thin out before the cloud came up.

Q How long was that before the police came up and Mr. Parsons--or Mr. Fielden spoke--ceased speaking?

A It might have been five minutes; it might have been ten; I don't know.

Q It was from five to ten minutes, you say?

A Yes sir.

Q Well, from the time that the cloud came up and the people began to move away, some of them, I will ask you if you saw Schnaubelt on that wagon at that time?

A I couldn't say about that. I think I saw him off and on. I think he got on the wagon and off again once or twice, but I couldn't say as to what particular time.

Q You say you wouldn't say that he was on the wagon after the cloud came up, and for the last ten minutes that Mr. Fielden was speaking?

A No sir; I couldn't swear to that.

Q Now, you say that Mr. Neebe was a member of the Internationals?

A Well, he was--

Q At that time?

A Up to 2 years ago, yes sir.

Q International what?

A It was called the International Working-people's Association; I think that was their translation of the German title of it.

Q Yes, and you were also a member of that?

A Yes sir.

Q Was it a secret organization?

A No sir.

Q Was it an armed body?

A No sir.

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Q Did you meet- have arms; revolvers, bowie knives or muskets or rifles, when you went to the meetings?

A No sir.

Q Nothing of that kind. It was simply an open door organization--open doors so far as the meetings were concerned, in the interest of the laboring classes in the city here.

A Yes--it was--it was an avowed socialistic organization.

Q It was an avowed socialistic organization but you had no secret chamber or secret meetings?

A No sir; not that I remember of.

Q No pass words?

A No sir.

Q Or signs of recognition upon the street between strangers?

A No sir.

Q Nothing of that kind? Now, what was the object of the organization?

Question objected to; objection overruled.

A So far as I found out at the meetings it was principally for the purpose of discussing socialism and instructing the masses in regard to it, and seeing about making converts.

Q Now, you left that organization two years ago?

A About that.

Q And since then you have no knowledge as to whether Mr. Neebe continued as a member?

A No sir.

Q Since then you haven't attended the meetings?

A No sir

Q At the time of the Haymarket meeting that evening you say there was responses. Now, after the cloud came up there five or ten minutes before there was an adjournment of the

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meeting, I will ask you whether the noise and confusion was greater or less than it had been before, if you know?

A There was a little confusion at the time for a minute or so, immediately succeeding the suggestion that the meeting adjourn to Zepf's Hall, I think.

Q Now, after that suggestion --that came from one of the platform speakers, did it not? It either came from Mr. Parsons or Mr. Spies?

A yes sir.

Q After the proposition to adjourn to Zeph's Hall did Mr. Fielden reply, "Just wait a moment and I will be through". That is correct, is it?

A Something to that effect, yes.

Q Then there was a little confusion and bustle when they were talking about an adjournment of the audience?

A That is my recollection, yes.

Q And part of them leaving at that time? They commenced to leave right there, did they not.

A I think they commenced leaving then.

Q At that time?

A Because it was getting pretty late.

Q But after that time, as compared to prior to that time wasn't there the most responses and the most confusion--was it before or after?

A Oh, I don't know; it seemed to me that the most of the responses were made to Parsons; he seemed to catch on better.

Q Parsons was the man that caught on in those speeches

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that night?

A It seemed so to me.

Q And when Fielden was speaking it was more quiet than it was when Parsons was speaking; they didn't appreciate his points so well, did they?

A No, I don't think his speech took so well; it wasn't as good anyway.

Q Did you hear Mr. Fielden while he started to go, or at any time, use the words, "now, in conclusion".

A Yes, I think I did. I remarked upon it, that after using the words, "Now, in conclusion", he started off on another speech.

Q After saying "in conclusion" he continued to make quite a conclusion?

A Yes sir.

Q That is probably what you gentlemen called a peroration? I think that is all.

Testimony of Louis Haas (second appearance), 1886 July 27. 261 258

LOUIS HAAS, a witness called on the part of the prosecution, after being first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Mr. Grinnell: (Q) What is your name?

A Louis Haas.

Q You are a police officer?

A I am.

Q You belong to the detective force?

A Yes, sir.

Q At the central station?

A Yes sir.

Q Were you at the haymarket meeting on May 4th,?

A I was.

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Q What time did you arrive there?

A About half past six at the Desplaines Street Station, and at the meeting on the street about seven o'clock.

Q When you got up onto the street, what did you do, about seven o'clock?

A Well, we went up Randolph Street, and we went up as far as Halsted Street on one side of the street and came back on the other; and remained at the corner of Union and Randolph Street the longest. There was quite a large crowd at all the corners at that time, and we stayed there and mixed in with the crowd to see what was going on.

Q Do you know whether any notice was given to the crowd by any person as to where the meeting was to be held?

A Well, I had seen bills and notices that there was to be a meeting on Haymarket Street.

Q That was on the Haymarket?

Q At the haymarket--Haymarket Street.

Q It was at the haymarket on Desplaines near the corner of Randolph?

A Yes sir.

Q And you were along the Haymarket Square, backward and forward?

A Yes sir.

Q The crowds seemed to gather and assemble at that square?

A They seemed to be looking where to go. They didn't seem to know where to go to.

Q You came back on Desplaines to the corner of Randolph?

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A Yes sir.

Q Did you see any of the defendants that night?

A Not at that time.

Q When did you see any of them?

A At that time the meeting had been going on Desplaines Street.

Q The meeting then was in progress when you first discovered the speaker?

A When I got back to the corner of Randolph and Desplaines then I see there was a meeting going on on Desplaines Street right in front of Crane Bros.

Q How near did you go to the wagon then?

A I went right up to the wagon.

Q Who was speaking?

A Spies was speaking then; at that time.

Q What did he then say?

A Well, he was talking about the troubles at McCormick's the day before. That he had been accused by McCormick of being the cause of the disturbance at the factory the day before. He also made the remark that the trouble only originated by a few boys and some leaving the meeting, throwing a few stones into the factory. He said that that was a lie, and some one in the audience then hollered out, "Hang him", or something to that effect. He then made the remark for them not to make any threats; that when they intended to do anything to go and do it and tell nobody about it. Something to that effect.

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Q How long did he speak---that is, how long did you hear him?

A Oh, I didn't hear him over ten or fifteen minutes; I then walked away.

Q Were you there when the next speaker began?

A I was there when Mr. Parsons was introduced. I didn't stay very long. I went around into the crowd on Randolph Street and came back after a while.

Q What did you hear Parsons say?

A Oh, I can't quote much of Parson's speech at all. There was some remarks made that I am not positive on.

Q You were circulating around then?

A Circulating around. I heard very little of Mr. Parsons' speech.

Q What was the temper of that crowd; how did they act?

A Well, they got very much excited; every once in a while somebody would holler out in the crowd "hang him", and cheer. It was more so on the east side of the street towards the wagon where they got the most excited at the time of this speech.

Q What time did you report back to the station? From time to time?

A I did not myself, no sir.

Q Did you hear Fielden speak?

A I did.

Q What did he say?

A He went on as regards to the law. He said the law was

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for the rich man but not for the poor man; and also in his remarks he also made these remarks: "Stab it; throttle it; stamp it".

Q Was there any police then in sight?

A At that time, no sir.

Q Well.

A He then went on to speak about some congressman, and I think the name was Forman, or something like that; that he wasn't doing any good at Congress for the benefit of the laborers' cause. And then towards the close of the meeting I turned around and seen the officers coming up the street; then, immediately, as the first company got across Randolph Street, north of Randolph, within ten or fifteen feet, I heard Fielden make this remark: "Here comes the blood-hounds now; men do your duty and I will do mine".

Q Now, where were the policemen--the front ranks of policemen, with reference to the car tracks on Randolph St. when you heard that remark?

A They were north of Randolph Street.

Q Where were you?

A I was then on the--pretty near the center of the street, more towards the west side of the street than the east, I should say.

Q Well, with reference to the wagon there?

A Well, I should say I was then within five or six feet of the wagon.

Q Did you see the police come?

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A I saw the police come up, yes.

Q Where did you go then?

A I went around to the west side, got onto the sidewalk, and got in between the second and third companies.

Q Were you there when---

A (Interrupting) The company was coming through that street and I had to go around with the company to get in back of it.

Q When you got there did you hear Ward or Bonfield say anything?

A I heard Captain Ward say: "I command you in the name of the People of the State of Illinois to disperse. "You and you" (Pointing with finger) and that is as far as I--as he got.

Q Did you hear Fielden make any remarks?

A Well, there was some remark made by Fielden but I can't tell now what the remark was: I had got around in further back.

Q Did you see Fielden?

A I saw Fielden, yes.

Q Did you see the bomb?

A Yes, I saw what I found afterwards was the bomb.

Q Did you see it in the air?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you know what it was or know where it came from?

A It came from the east side of Desplaines Street, I should say, between maybe five or six feet from the corner of the alley; south of the corner.

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Q In the corner and south of it?

A South of the corner--south of the alley. There was quite a number of boxes piled up on the sidewalk.

Q South of the alley?

A South of the alley; and from the direction I saw the bomb come I should say it was half way between the alley and the boxes.

Q In reference to that alley where did it strike the street?

A It struck the street--well, I can't---it came right--well, I should---

Q (Interrupting) Well, here is the map; point it out on that.

A I can explain it more on the map than I can--

Q Very well, explain it on the map. How did it appear to you where it went. That is sufficient.

Mr. Salomon: Point and show where you stood at the same time.

Q (Showing) Here is the wagon, so it was right in here, this side.

Q Just give a description so the reporters can get it. Say north of the alley, etc.

A Here is the wagon; here is where it stood.

Mr. Grinnell: (Q) What is it; right in the middle of the street.

A In the middle of the street, more to the west side of the street.

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Q Opposite the wagon?

A Opposite the wagon; a little north of the wagon.

Mr. Salomon: South of the wagon, you mean?

A Yes sir.

Mr. Grinnell: (Q) That is, you mean when the bomb was thrown?

A Yes sir; the bomb came right across in front of me. It struck right in there (showing) right ahead of me.

Q So, in your estimation, your position right after it struck would be south of the south line of the alley?

A Yes.

Q A little south of that; about somewhere in the vicinity of the middle of the street;

A In the middle of the street. It might have been a little more to the west than in the middle of the street.

Q What was the effect on the police?

A At that moment there was quite a report from the explosion; the center of the street was all covered with smoke at that time; as it cleared away it seemed that this second company was all on the ground at that time.

Q In reference to the explosion of the bomb, when did the firing begin?

A There was firing from the west side of the street almost at the same time this explosion occurred.

Mr. Black: (Q) From which side of the street?

A From the west--from the east side of the street towards the wagon.

Mr. Grinnell: (Q) You may state as to the wagon; you mean from where the wagon was?

A On the east side.

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Q Had the police fired before the bomb exploded?

A No sir, they had not.

Q After the bomb exploded, did the police fire before the crowd?

A There were shots fired from the east side of the street where the wagon was before any shots were fired from the police.

Q Do you know any of the defendants?

A I know some of the defendants.

Q Well, who did you see of the defendants there that night?

A I saw Mr. Spies, Mr. Parsons and Mr. Fielden.

Q Did you see Schnaubelt--the man they call Schnaubelt there that night?

A I did, on the wagon.

Q What time of the night was it that you saw him on the wagon?

A I think that he was on the wagon at the time Parsons was speaking. He was on the wagon at the time that Spies was closing.

Q Do you know whether you saw him on there when Fielden was speaking?

A I am not positive.

Cross Examination.

Mr. Black: (Q) How long have you been in the detective service?

A About six years, sir.

Q In that still?

A In that still, yes sir.

Q You were serving as a detective on the night of the haymarket meeting, were you not?

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A I was serving as a police officer.

Q. Yes, but you were doing detective service in citizens' clothes, were you not?

A Yes sir.

Q And attended this meeting, mingling with the crowd in and out?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you see any of the circulars calling for the meeting in advance of the meeting itself?

A Yes sir.

Q Where did you see those circulars?

A Oh, in advance of the meeting.

Q Yes.

A No sir; I think I seen a circular on the evening of the meeting. They were scattered around.

Q But I mean did you see them before you attended the meeting itself?

A No sir; I did not. I saw a notice in the Arbeiter Zeitung office; it was shown me in the afternoon.

Q Where was the first of these circulars that you ever saw?

A I think it was at the meeting.

Q At the meeting?

A yes sir.

Q Was it at that meeting in the street; were there notices there?

A Well, I wouldn't be positive about it, whether they were on the street or not.

Q Before?

A Well, I couldn't be positive now about that or in regard to that. If you want to know how my first attention was called to the meeting I will tell you from

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where I got it. I got it from the Arbeiter Zeitung in the afternoon. At the station I was sent out to get it--the Arbeiter Zeitung--containing the announcement of the meeting. I have that still.

Q That was before the meeting?

A Before the meeting, yes.

Q You say you still have that?

A Yes sir.

Q Have you that now?

A I have it at the station; I will bring it over.

Q (Presenting paper) Will you look at a copy of this circular and tell me whether this is a copy of the circular that you referred to?

A Well, I think that is another circular.

Q Are you referring to the revenge circular?

A No, not to the revenge circular; this looks similar to the one I seen.

The Court: (Q) Which part, the English or German; in which language,?

A Well, they were both in English. There was German and English in the same circular.

Mr. Black: In the call for the meeting, as well as in the revenge circular, both English and German were used. The call for the last meeting.

Q What hour in the afternoon did you reach the locality of this meeting?

A I didn't reach it until evening, about half past six.

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Q And you remained there until the explosion--after the explosion of the bomb?

A I remained there most all of that night.

Q Now, how much of the speaking that occurred there that evening did you hear?

A I didn't hear but very little of the speeches; of Mr. Spies and Mr. Parsons hardly anything at all, as I went back on Desplaines Street and on Randolph Street and walked around with the crowd.

Q But you did hear the most of Fielden's speech, did you?

A Well, I heard the most of it, yes.

Q Now, what was your location at the close of Mr. Fielden's speech, or after it was coming to an end?

A It was on this (showing) a little towards the west, and a little towards the wagon.

Q How far away from it?

A I should suppose 6 or 8 feet.

Q How many people were in and about that wagon and within a radius of the same--in or about?

A Well, there was about five or six hundred there then. In the early part of the evening there was about nine hundred or a thousand people there, I should judge.

Q Your impression would be that at that time about one half of the crowd that was at the meeting had dispersed?

A Well, there might have been. There wasn't quite so many there.

Q I understood you to say that there was about five or

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six hundred then, and there was about nine hundred or a thousand prior to that?

A Yes sir.

Q Now, in your judgment you would say there was about one half of the people gone away at the time the police reached the scene of action?

A There might have been about one third gone away.

Q About one third?

A Yes sir.

Q How long was it before the police reached the scene of action and came to a halt that you heard this remark of Fielden's that you have testified of?

A Oh, they came to a halt but a very short time before that. The first company came up-- they marched right up in our front and stood about ten feet, I should judge, from the wagon; it was a very few moments.

Q It may be a matter of importance, so I want to know how long it was before the first division came to a halt right there, close at the wagon, that this remark that you heard as spoken by Fielden was heard by you?

A Well, it was maybe a minute or two.

Q Well, it might have been two or three minutes or half a minute?

A Well, they were right close coming up on the street.

Q Let us get at it in another way. Did Fielden go on speaking after he made that remark?

A He was speaking at the time the officers came to a halt. They were coming up

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on the other side of the street.

Q What did he say after making that remark?

A Our company came right up on the west side of the street and I went away--I went back of the same company.

Q Now, do you say, Mr. Haas, that he made that remark, here come the bloodhounds of police now; men do your duty and I will do mine?

A About that.

Q Well, if there was a minute intervening there was enough time for him to say, here come the bloodhounds now; men do your duty and I will do mine?

A Yes sir.

Q Did he say anything after he had made that remark that you have testified of and before Captain Ward gave his order for the dispersal of the meeting?

A He had made some--he had spoken some sentences, or was still speaking at that time when the company came up.

Q Can you tell me what that sentence was?

A I cannot.

Q Can you tell me what it purported?

A No sir.

Q Did you notice any portion of it so as to be able to say more than that part of that sentence, here come the bloodhounds of police now; men do your duty and I will do mine?

A Yes, there was something said; the company came up and came to a halt. The minute they came to a halt I started away and I can't say that I heard anything more.

Q Now, you were standing there at the time the police came up and heard that remark?

A Yes sir.

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Q How far from the police were you at the time that Fielden made that remark?

A Well, they were about eight or ten feet away.

Q In what tone of voice was that remark made?

A Well, he made that remark, here come the bloodhounds--something to that effect--men do your duty and I will do mine--we will do mine--I will do mine; that was the remark.

Q Now, tell me again what tone of voice was that spoken in?

A In-well, I should say it was in an excited tone of voice at that time.

Q And a loud tone too?

A Yes, so I could hear it, and everybody else around there could hear it too.

Q Loud enough so you could hear it and everybody? else around there could hear it too?

A Yes, as close as I was to them.

Q Now, do you think that people further away from you could have heard it if they had been listening?

A Oh, well, at that time there was a little more people on the move; the police were coming up and there was quite a number moving out both sides the street. There was quite a number that was near me moved away at that time.

Q Had the announcement been made by Captain Ward at that time?

A No sir.

Q This then was before Captain Ward had said anything?

A Yes sir.

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Q How long before Captain Ward made his announcement was this utterance of Fielden's?

A Well, it might have been half a minute or a minute.

Q Half a minute or a minute?

A Yes sir.

Q Do you think that in the tone of voice in which Fielden uttered those words he could have been heard across the alley and ten or fifteen feet down on the sidewalk to the south?

A To the south?

Q Yes sir.

A Oh, I think he could have been heard some distance.

Q You think he could have been heard some distance?

A Yes sir.

Q Well, then, he made it in a loud tone of voice, did he?

A He made it in the ordinary tone of voice that he spoke in in the evening.

Q Fielden is a man that speaks in a pretty loud tone of voice when he gets excited?

A Yes sir.

Q He was excited when he made this remark?

A Yes sir.

Q He spoke in a loud tone of voice then?

A Yes sir.

Q He is a man of very distinct enunciation?

A Yes sir.

Q You heard the remark when he made it?

A Yes sir.

Q Did the remark when he made it make any impression on you mind?

A Not at that time; no sir.

Q Not at that time?

A No sir; of course as he made the remark, here come the bloodhounds, I was counted as one.

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of the bloodhounds.

Q It impressed you a little as having some relation to you?

A Yes, I being engaged with the police, of course.

Q When did you first mention to any person the fact that you had heard this remark coming from Mr. Fielden?

A Oh, I made it soon after the shooting; the next day or the day after that.

Q Can you tell me to whom you first mentioned it?

A Oh, I mentioned it in the station to a number of officers there.

Q And when was that?

A That was within a day or so afterwards.

Q Do you remember whether you mentioned it to Lieut. Quinn?

A I did not. I never spoke to Lieut. Quinn.

Q You never spoke to Lieut. Quinn? Can you tell me any of the police officers to whom you did mention it?

A Oh, yes, I did mention it to Quinn, part of it.

Q Name each one?

A Lieut. Shea.

Q He is a detective?

A Yes sir, Mr. Bonfield, another detective connected with our office.

Q Mr. James Bonfield, or detective Bonfield?

A Yes sir.

Q Mr. Rowan, one of the detectives and also my partner; Mr. Kehoe, Mr. Myers, and all the other officers in the station.

Q Now, when you say officers in the station you mean detective officers in the station?

A Yes sir.

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Q Those officers that you have mentioned are all of them officers detailed from the central station, are they not?

A Yes sir.

Q Now, can you tell me when you first made that statement to them, or to any of them, definitely?

A That was made, I think the next day after the shooting.

Q The next day?

A I wouldn't be positive; it might have been the day after.

Q By the way, do you know Schnaubelt?

A I examined-I see Mr. Schnaubelt in the Arbeiter Zeitung office the next day, and he was pointed out to me as the brother-in-law of Mr. Schwab.

Q That was the first time you had ever seen him to know him, was it?

A I saw the same man on the wagon the night before.

Q Answer the question; The question is whether on this occasion in the Arbeiter Zeitung office on the fifth of May, was the first time that you ever saw Schnaubelt to know him?

A Yes sir.

Q He was then pointed out to you?

A Yes sir.

Q You think the latest that you can fix definitely when you first saw Schnaubelt was when Fielden was along about the close of his speech?

A Along about the close and the announcement of Mr. Parsons.

Q You didn't see him before, did you?

A I did not.

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Q Did you see when he went away which direction he took?

A No sir; I went off while Mr. Parsons was speaking.

Q You got back there in, you should think, half an hour, didn't you?

A I went around with the crowd on both sides of it.

Q You got around on the north side of the wagon, didn't you?

A I was on the north side of the wagon.

Q Were you there more than once during that evening?

A On the north side of the wagon?

Q Yes sir.

A I was around there.

Q You observed the wagon that stood north of the speakers' wagon?

A Yes sir.

Q Did you notice who was on that wagon during that evening?

A I think there was some ladies on that wagon. I think two ladies.

Q Did you notice whether there was any children there?

A That I don't recollect.

Q Did you recognize either of the ladies, or did you find out who they were either by inquiry or otherwise?

A I didn't inquire.

Q Are those the only persons that you remember facing to the north of the wagon---that is, north of the speakers' wagon?

A Well, there might have been some others standing around there, or some others on the wagon.

Q At what hour was it that you noticed the ladies on the

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wagon to the north of the speakers' wagon?

A This meeting commenced about half past eight or a little after eight; it might have been about nine o'clock or half past nine o'clock, the different times that I had been around--the number of times.

Q Now, Mr. Haas, when you left your station near the wagon where you say you heard this remark from Fielden, did you leave before or after Captain Ward commenced his announcement to the crowd?

A I had got around on the side moving away. I got pretty near on to the sidewalk on the west side of the street as Captain Ward made these remarks. I comman---

Q (Interrupting) You were then moving when Captain Ward made his announcement?

A Yes sir.

Q And had gotten nearly to the sidewalk?

A I was just about going onto the sidewalk, I judge. I got onto the sidewalk and had got around to the back of the second company when he was making this remark.

Q What was your position with reference to the second line of police at the time Captain Ward began speaking?

A I had got off the sidewalk to go around to the second cordon of police, between the second and third company; I was between the second and third company.

Q Now, how far back had you got when Ward commenced to speak?

A Oh, I had got maybe fifteen or twenty feet.

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Q You passed along the sidewalk in front, or near the front of the first division of police?

A Yes sir.

Q Then you passed around to the second division, didn't you?

A Yes sir.

Q And passed onto the street again?

A Yes sir.

Q How far into the second division had you got when the bomb exploded?

A Oh, I had got maybe six or eight feet off the sidewalk.

Q And where, with reference to where you stood, was the bomb when it exploded?

A Well, I can explain it on the map here.

Q What I want to get at is with reference to where you stood.

The Court: It will be clearer if you tell with reference to the points of the compass.

A I should say I was about eight or ten feet from the bomb at the time it exploded.

Mr. Black: (Q) Which, eight or ten feet?

A It may have been eight feet, it may have been seven feet, I should say ten feet.

Q The line of police was then to your front?

A Yes sir.

Q In what direction was the bomb immediately at the time of the explosion?

A At the time of the explosion it was almost in front, north of me.

Q You had passed around so that you were in the rear of

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the second division when it exploded?

A. Yes sir.

Q. How near do you think you were to the sidewalk at that time?

A. Oh, I might have been six or eight feet from the sidewalk west, and maybe eight feet from the bomb in front of me.

Q. Your impression then would be that the bomb exploded within six or eight feet, or some such matter, of the curb of the street, would it?

A. Along about that; but it might have been eight or ten feet from the curb of the street.

Q. And near due north from where you were standing at the moment?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Now Mr. Haas, you were a witness at the coroner's inquest held in reference to the death of Mathias Degan, were you not?

A. I was.

Q. Did you in your testimony on that day say anything whatever about this alleged remark of Fielden's?

A. I did not.

Q. After the bomb exploded, did you hear any shots fired?

A. I heard shots fired from the east -- from the west side of the street.

Q. Well now, east or west, which?

A. On the west side of the street near the wagon -- on the east side of the street near the wagon.

Q. Now, are you sure of that as to which side it was;

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whether it was east or west?

A. Well, I mean on the east side of the street near that alley, close to the wagon.

Q. Are you sure that you heard any shots fired before the police opened fire?

A. I am sure.

Q. Before the police opened fire?

A. Yes sir.

Q. How long is it that you have been certain of shots from that east sidewalk, or from the neighborhood of that alley, before the police opened fire?

A. From the very night, before half an hour after it occurred, after I got away from where the shooting was.

Q. You were absolutely certain of that fact then at the time that you testified before the coroner's jury, were you not?

A. Yes sir, I was.

Q. Did you not, in your testimony before the coroner's jury upon that point say in effect that you thought you heard shots fired from the east of you, but you were not sure as to that?

A. I don't recollect making that statement.

Q. My question is if you did make that statment upon that point?

A. I don't think so.

Q. Will you swear that you did not?

A. I will.

Q. You will swear that you did not?

A. I will swear that I didn't make that statement, yes.

Q. Before the coroner's jury?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You signed your statement after it was given, didn't you?

A. I signed the testimony, yes.

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Q. And after it had been written out?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then I will ask you -- I will say simply that the copy of the testimony which I hold in my hand reads as follows: "I think I heard some shots fired from the east of me; I am not sure."

A. I am pretty certain that my testimony was as I have given it here.

Q. "That was in the direction of where the boxes were:" Now, the boxes were simply to the south of the alley, were they not?

A. Well, I should say the shots now --

Q. (Interrupting) Yes, you said the alley?

A. Yes sir.

Q. What do you want to say further?

A. I mean to say from the east side of the street between the boxes and the wagon.

MR. FOSTER: The question was where they were.

MR. BLACK: Q. Where were the boxes that night?

A. I should say the boxes were about eight to ten feet from the alley to the south.

Q. Eight to ten feet south of the alley?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Now, according to your best recollection, were those shots in the neighborhood of the boxes, or were they from the neighborhood of the alley?

A. I should say they were fired from between the boxes and the wagon. I couldn't tell exactly where they were fired.

Q. And you are now absolutely certain, I understand you, and have been ever since that night that you did hear shots from the east side in the neighborhood of the boxes, before

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the police opened fire at all?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You are as certain of that as you are of anything that you have testified to?

A. I am certain.

Q. Are you just as certain that you heard this remark made by Fielden that you have testified to as anything else that you have sworn to here upon the stand?

A. I am certain that I heard that remark as I have testified to it here.

Q. And that remark, as I understand, was made by Fielden in an excited, loud tone of voice so that you are certain it could have been heard a distance of ten or fifteen feet down the alley; south of the alley?

A. I don't know how well anybody else could hear it, I know I heard it.

Q. You heard it distinctly?

A. Yes sir.

Q. (Presenting paper) That is your signature, is it not?

A. That is my signature.

Q. You swore to that after it was written down, didn't you? Signed it and swore to it?

A. I was sworn before, I believe.

Q. Before it was written down; and then you signed it?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Now in reading from this I will ask you whether or not on that examination if you did not use the following langiage: "I think I heard some shots fired from the east of me; I am

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not sure. That was in the direction of where the boxes were."# Now, did you so state at the coroner's inquest?

A. I don't think I did. I don't think that statement was read to me before I signed it.

Q. Are you in the habit of signing statements without reading them over? Sworn statements; statements purporting to be given under oath?

A. That testimony was taken right at the coroner's inquest in the room and I signed it. There was others there, several of them.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. There were others there signing their depositions?

A. Yes sir.

MR. BLACK Q. Wasn't this testimony read over to you then and there before you signed it?

A. I don't think it was, sir.

Q. Will you swear that it was not?

A. To my best knowledge and belief now I don't think it was. I will swear that.

Q. The question is whether it was or not, and I understand you to say to the best of your knowledge and belief it was not?

A. Yes sir.

Q. The coroner's inquest that we have been speaking of was the coroner's inquest held in reference to the death of Mathias J. Degan?

A. Yes; in the County Clerk's office.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. In the City Clerk's Office?

A. Yes sir.

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MR. BLACK: Q. In the City Clerk's office?

A. Yes sir.

Q. In the City Hall Building on La Salle Street?

A. Yes sir

Q. In the City of Chicago?

A. Yes sir.

Q. On the 5th of May?

A On the next day after the --

Q. After the explosion of the bomb?

A. Yes sir.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. Do you remember the day of the taking of this? (Referring to the deposition of the witness before the coroner.)

A. I think it was on the 5th of August.

MR. BLACK: The 5th of May

A. Or of May.

(Insert English & Thompson)

Testimony of G. P. English, 1886 July 27. 288 285

G. P. ENGLISH,

a witness called and sworn on behalf of the People, was examined in chief by Mr. Grinnell, and testified as follows:

Q. What is your name?

A. G.P.English.

Q. You are a reporter for the Tribune?

A. Yes sir.

Q. And have been for a good many years?

A. Yes sir.

Q. How long?

A. Seventeen or eighteen.

Q. You are a shorthand reporter too?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Did you attend the Haymarket meeting?

A. I did.

Q. What time did you get there?

A. About half past seven.

Q. That was on the 4th of May?

A. Yes sir.

Q. What did you do when you got there -- you got there about half past seven?

A. Yes sir.

Q. What did you see and hear?

A. I didn't see anything. I looked for a meeting and didn't find it.

Q. Where did you go to look?

A. Well, I went all around to Haymarket square.

Q. From Desplaines to Halsted?

A. From Desplaines to Halsted.

Q. Did you see any people on the street?

A. Yes sir.

Q. How many?

A. Well, a few.

Q. Did you go clear up to Halsted?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Did you see any of the defendants there?

A. No sir, not at that time.

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Q. You came back did you to Desplaines Street?

A. Yes sir.

Q. What time did you go back there?

A. Oh, I suppose it took me perhaps ten minutes to walk up and down; but I walked very slowly.

Q. What happened then when you walked back to Desplaines and Randolph?

A. I didn't see anything and went off to the station.

Q. Well, what did you do then?

A. I had to wait a little while.

Q. When you got back -- how long were you at the station -- when you got back to the station?

A. Oh, I was there perhaps five minutes or so.

Q. And came back to the corner of Desplaines and Randolph?

A. I went down and came back to the corner of Desplaines and Randolph and leaned up against a lamp post there a little while. There were more people coming all the time. Then I walked west on Randolph Street and I met a couple of other reporters; then we talked a little while and then I saw Mayor Harrison and I started for him to interview him, and he got ahead of me, and I followed him into the station and he went into the office. There was a number of officers there, lieutenants and captains, I suppose and I didn't get a chance at him. And I stayed in there -- oh, I don't know, ten or fifteen minutes perhaps. I was talking to somebody and he

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said the Mayor had gone out, and I went right out and I caught up with him just a little west of the alley, and he went along over pretty near half way across Randolph Street, and then he came back, but I couldn't get a chance to talk to him. And I waited around for a little while, and then I saw somebody -- some people going over north on Desplaines, beyond Randolph. I thought perhaps that was where the meeting was going on, and I went over, and it turned out that it was.

MR. BLACK: A little louder, please.

A. I went over there and in a little while Mr. Spies got upon the wagon and motioned with his hands that way (showing)/ And somebody said, "Are you going to begin?" and he said, "Yes, all right". And then he said that Mr. Fielden and Mr. Parsons were to make a speech but they hadn't come. And then Mr. Spies got down off of the wagon and went over towards Randolph Street. He was gone perhaps five or ten minutes, and he came back, and as he passed me I asked him if Mr. Parsons was going to speak. I understood him to say "Yes". Then he got up on the platform -- got up on the wagon, or whatever it was, I didn't see distinctly, and he called the meeting to order.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. What did he say when he did that, as you say, Mr. English.

A. "Gentlemen, please come to order."

Q. How far were you from the wagon?

A. Oh, I was about

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fifteen feet, I guess, or so, or twenty feet.

Q. Did you take shorthand notes of his speech?

A. I did, as much as I could.

Q. Have you got them?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Where were you taking them?

A. I took them in my overcoat pocket.

Q. What do you mean by that?

A. Oh, I was standing up and had a note book in my pocket and a short pencil.

Q. Had a note book in your pocket?

A. Yes sir.

Q. In your overcoat pocket?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Why did you take them that way?

Question objected to.

Q. Well, will you read from your notes?

MR. BLACK: We object to his reading from his notes. He may read off from them personally, for the purpose of the refreshing of his recollection; but we object to his reading them out loud.

THE COURT: Read all that he said, so far as you can, without the aid of your notes.

A. Well, I can tell what I took from my reports of the spee speeches. I can't recollect what he said.

MR. FOSTER: Your Honor said he may read them?

THE COURT: I did not mean that. If he took shorthand notes and if he knows they are correct.

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A. They are correct.

Q. And are decipherable?

A. Yes sir.

THE COURT: If he can't remember the words without his notes then he can read from his notes.

A. Some of them I can read, some I can't.

MR. BLACK: That is a good reason why he shouldn't read them at all.

THE COURT: Well, so much of them as you can read, do you know whether they are correct or not?

A. I think they are.

THE COURT: Well, that portion then is competent.

Defendants except.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. Well, proceed Mr. English.

A. Well, before this, I should state, that when Mr. Spies was first on the wagon --

MR. BLACK: (Interrupting) A little louder Mr. English.

A. When Mr. Spies was first on the wagon, I think, or it might have been when he came back, somebody in the crowd suggested that the meeting should go over in the Haymarket; but Mr. Spies said no, that the crowd would interfere with the street cars. Now, the first I have here is Spies: "Please come to order, gentlemen. Gentlemen and fellow workmen --"

MR. FOSTER: (Interrupting) Well, does the court say he can read everything? Do we understand that your Honor rules that

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he can read from his memorandum?

THE COURT: Oh, yes. That identical question has been passed upon by the Supreme Court: that if a stenographer makes notes, which, so far as they go, he can say -- he testifies are correct -- which he intended to have correct at the time, and which he now believes are correct, then, if he has forgotten, himself the language he may read from his notes.

MR. BLACK: Well, we do not know if he has forgotten the language, if your Honor please.

MR. GRINNELL: He simply said he didn't recollect; he didn't remember; that he reported so many speeches that it would be hard work for him to remember independently what any one said.

MR. BLAC: Well, we except to the ruling.

THE WITNESS: He said: "Gentlemen and fellow workingmen--"

MR. FOSTER: Who is this now, Spies?

A. This is Spies. "Mr. Parsons and Mr. Fielden will be here in a very short time to address you. I will say, however, first, this meeting was called for the purpose of discussing the general situation of the eight hour strike, and the events which have taken place during the last forty-eight hours. It seems to have been the opinion of the authorities, that this meeting has been called for the purpose of raising a little row and disturbance. This however, was not the intention of the committee that called the meeting. The committee that called the meeting wanted to tell you certain facts of which you are probably aware. The

294 291

capitalistic press has been misleading -- misrepresenting the cause of labor for the last two weeks, so much so"-- then there is something that is unintelligible that I can't read at all. Some of it went off on the side of my pocket.

MR. FOSTER: You haven't got your pocket, have you?

A. Well I didn't have much room in my coat pocket. The next is: "Whenever strikes have taken place; whenever people have been driven to violence by the oppression of their" -- then there is something unintelligible. And the next I have is: "Then the police" -- then there is three or four words of that that is unintelligible. Then there were cheers. "But I want to tell you gentlemen, that these acts of violence are the natural outcome of the degradation and the oppression to which working people are subjected. I was addressing a meeting of ten thousand wage workers yesterday afternoon in the neighborhood of McComick's. They didn't want me to speak. The most of them were good church going people. They didn't want me to speak because I was a socialist. They wanted to tear me down from the cars, but I spoke to them and told them that they must stick together" -- Then there is some more that is unintelligible. and some more, there is one, eight or ten words on a page. The next I have, is "And he would have to submit to them if they would stick together." There is only eight or ten words on a page. The next I have is: "They were anarchists -- they were not anarchists, but good church going people" Then the next, "The capitalistic press" -- what he said I

295 292

can't make out. "They were good christians." Then the patrol wagons came and blood was shed. Then a boy or some one in the crowd said: "Shame on them". And the next thing said is, "Throwing stones at the factory; most harmless sport." Then some one in the crowd -- then Spies said: "What did the police do?" And some one in the crowd said, "Murdered them". Then he went on: "they only came to the meeting there as if attending church." Then there is some more that is unintelligible. The next I have is: "Such things tell you of the agitation" I couldn't tell them that. Then there is something more that is unintelligible. The next I have is: "Couldn't help themselves any more. It was then they resorted to violence." The next I have: "Before you starve" -- No connection whatever. And the next, "This fight that is going on now is simply a struggle for the existence of the oppressed classes." Then I have some more here that is unintelligible. That is the last that I can get out. At this time my pocket was full of paper; it was all rumpled up, and I thought that I had got to the end of this note book. That is, as my pocket got fuller and fuller of paper, my notes got more unintelligible, because I didn't have room enough to move my hand in, and the notes were away up here (showing), and I evidently made some in my pocket: Then I moved around, and the meeting seemed to be orderly, and I took another position

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in the face of the speaker, and I took out my paper and reported openly during all the rest of the meeting, until I saw the police come and then I went on the sidewalk.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. Well, what report have you then?

A. Only what is in my paper. These notes were first made on the ordinary paper that reporters use. I put them on my desk when I came there in the morning about half past one, and I had no idea that I was going to be called as a witness, but Mr. Patterson, I think it was the night after, asked me where they were, and said they might be important; and I looked for them, and they told me they were gone; they supposed the janitor took them. So I have no further information except what is in the paper.

Q. Did you write out from your notes that which appeared in the Tribune the next day?

A. Only part of it.

Q. As to Parson's speech?

A. As to Parson's and Spies and Fielden.

Q. Now you may state -- if you have no other way than that that appeared in the Tribune, as taken from your notes, you may state what Parsons said?

A. Well, this is not all of the speeches.

Q. I wish further, first, before we proceed to Parsons, can you give me from your memory, or from recollection, without the paper, which would refresh your memory, what Spies said

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other than that which you have from your original notes?

A. I can read it.

Q. Very well. Read it. Refresh your memory as to what he said further -- what Spies said further than that which you have from your notes -- your original notes. I understand, any matters that appeared in print were written out at night from your original notes?

A. Yes sir, so far as it goes.

Q. From your notes and from memory.

A. Yes sir, but all of it is not here. What is given here of Parsons he could say in perhaps three or four minutes, but he spoke perhaps three quarters of an hour.

Q. But what is there was said by these speakers?

A. With the exception that the pronouns and the verbs are changed.

Q. Explain to the jury how that is done.

A. In making an abstract of a speech, when a man says, "I will do this", the custom is to say, He did that -- to put it in the past tense. When a man says, "I will do it", they put it in the abstract, "he would do it." It is simply the pronouns and the verbs are changed.

Q. Now you may state other than that what -- state what there was in Spies' speech, give it to us in detail fully what you have written or what was transcribed by you from your notes, to the jury, or explain what occurred there.

Objected to.

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THE COURT: I don't quite understand from the witness --

Q. Is this verbatim so far as it goes?

A. Yes, so far as it goes except the pronouns and the verbs are changed.

Q. Except the pronouns and the verbs and the moods are changed?

A. Yes sir.

MR. BLAC: It is verbatim with the exception that it is not.

THE COURT: Except he is speaking in the third person.

A. Except that he is speaking in the third person.

MR. BLACK: We make our objection.

THE COURT: Q. Now, can you tell from memory, and the notes - give us the words that the speakers used. That is, knowing the meaning, after changing your moods and tenses and pronouns, can you go back again and read off and repeat the original of the words so far as you have got them?

A. I think so.

Q. Well then go on and do it.

Defendants except.

THE COURT: I understood the witness to say that so far as he does read he reads what Parsons said.

MR. FOSTER: Verbatim?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. FOSTER: He don't mean that.

THE COURT: Let me hear that again.

THE WITNESS: After I got back to the office my instructions

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were to write out the most incendiary part of the speeches. I went right through my notes, and so far as it goes, they were transcribed from my notes, with the exception of the changing of the verbs and the pronouns. That is I took this from my notes, and changed the verbs and the pronouns as I went along.

Q. And by changing back again it becomes verbatim, does it?

A. Yes, sir; it must be.

Q. But only of a small portion of it?

A. Only a small portion.

MR. BLACK: The most incendiary part.

MR. FOSTER: The part in which he designates "Hell for a minute," in the report.

A. I don't know anything about that, I didn't write that.

THE COURT: Then repeat as near as you can what Parsons or Spies said.

MR. GRINNELL: Give that part of Spies which you have not given, if you can; what his words were, making the changes.

A. (Reads) "It was said that I inspired the attack on McCormick's. That is a lie. The fight is going on. Now is the chance to strike for the existence of the oppressed classes. The oppressors want us to be content. They will kil us. The thought of liberty which inspired your sires to fight for their freedom ought to animate you to-day. The day is

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not far distant when we will resort to hanging these men." (Applause and cries of, "Hang them now.") "Mc. Cormick is the man who created the row Monday, and he must be held responsible for the murder of our brothers. (Cries of, "Hang him") "Don't make any threats; they are of no avail. When ever you get ready to do something do it and don't make any threats beforehand. There are in the city to-day between forty and fifty thousand men locked out because they refuse to obey the supreme will or dictation of a small number of men. The families of twenty-five or thirty thousand men are starving because their husbands and fathers are not men enough to withstand and resist the dictation of a few thieves on a grand scale, to put out of the power of a few men to say whether they should work or not? Would they place their lives, their happiness, everything out of the arbitrary power of a few rascals."

MR. BLACK: Wait a minute, Mr. English. Aren't you forgetting your moods and tenses now? "Would they place their lives," is not precisely like a speaker would speak to an audience.

A. Well, shall we put it out of the power of a few men to say whether you shall work or not. You place your lives, your happiness, everything out of the arbitrary power of a few rascals who have been raised in idleness and luxury upon the

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fruits of your labor. Will you stand that?" (Cries of, "No") The press say we are Bohemians, Poles, Russians, Germans -- that there are no Americans among us. That is a lie. Every honest American is with us. Those who are not are unworthy of their traditions and their fore-fathers."

Q. Is that all you have got of Spies besides that which you have read?

A. That is all of Spies.

Q. Now, let us have what Parsons said. Did you have more of Spies that wasn't written out?

A. Yes, sir, I think I did. Spies I think spoke fifteen or twenty minutes, and this wouldn't represent more than five or six perhaps. That is, in actual talking. Well, now here is an abstract of Parsons, and I can't give the exact language when he first started off.

Q. Well, we will get back to that in a minute. You may tell us, Mr. English, in your own way, when he first started off in his speech. What was his first preliminary remark when he started off?

A. I can't tell you about that. It was about the working men, that the remedy for their wrongs was in socialism.

Q. Well, now tell us what you have got exact.

A. He said, without them they would soon become Chinamen. He said, "It is time to raise a note of warning. There is nothing in the eight hour movement to excite the capitalist."

MR. FOSTER: Didn't he say anything about Chinamen before that?

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A. Well, I said that. "Do you know that the military are under arms, and a gatling gun is ready to mow you down. Was this Germany or Russia or Spain."

MR. ZEISLER: Is this.

A. Is this. "Is this Germany, Russia or Spain". (A voice, "It looks like it") "Whenever you make a demand for eight hours pay, and increase of pay, the militia and the deputy sheriff and the Pinkerton men are called out and you are shot and clubbed and murdered in the streets. I am not here for the purpose of inciting anybody but to speak out, to tell the facts as they exist, even though it shall cost me my life before morning." Then he went on to tell about Cincinnati.

MR. FOSTER: Well, go right along.

A. The Cincinnati demonstration.

Q. Well, we want it.

A. And about the rifle guard being needed.

Q. Why don't you go right along?

A. Well, that is the abstract here.

MR. INGHAM: You can't swear what the abstract is as to what he said.

THE COURT:Q. Is that all.

A. No sir, there is another part of it here. "It behooves you, as you love your wife and children, if you don't want to see them perish with hunger, killed or cut down like dogs on the street, Americans, in the

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interest of your liberty and your independence, to arm, arm yourselves." There I think is an error. My recollection is that he said, "If you wouldn't be killed or cut down like dogs in the street, Americans, in the interest of your liberty and your independence to arm, to arm." (Applause and cries of "We will do it. We are ready now".) "You are not." Then the rest of it is the wind-up.

MR. SALOMON:Q. Parsons replied, "You are not."

A. Yes sir he said, "You are not". Somebody in the crowd said, "We are ready now", and Parsons replied and said, "You are not."

MR. GRINNELL:Q. Well, what else do you remember, Mr. English?

A. Oh, he talked for a long while about, out of every dollar the working men got fifteen cents and the capitalists or employers, got eighty-five cents. And he said he was a Knight of Lanor, a socialist, and a member of the Typographical Union -- Oh, I don't know, he talked a long while.

Q. Have you any more of his speeches?

A. No more of his, no sir.

Q. What was his manner of saying it, when he cried, "To arms, to arms".

A. Well, just about as he had been talking. I didn't notice any difference in him.

Q. How was he talking?

A. His ordinary talk.

Q. Well, I don't know what that is?

A. Well, he was actually -- he was a good talker.

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Q. Now, what was the next speaker?

A. Fielden.

Q. What did you get of Fielden?

A. Well, he said -- the first I have of his written out was: "There are premonitions of danger. All knew. The press say the anarchists will sneak away; we are not going to. If we continue to be robbed it will not be long before we will be murdered. There is no security for the working classes under the present social system. A few individuals control the means of living and hold the working men in a vise. Everybody does not know that. Those who know it are tired of it, and know the others will get tired of it too. They are determined to end it and will end it, and there is no power in the land that will prevent them. Congressman Foran said, `The laborer can get nothing from legislation'. He also said that, The laborers can get some relief from their present condition when the rich man knew it was unsafe for him to live in a community where there were dissatisfied working men; for they would solve the labor problem. I don't know whether you are democrats or republicans, but whichever you are, you worship at the shrine of rebels. John Brown, Jefferson, Patrick Henry and Hopkins said to the people, `The law is your enemy. We are rebels against it. The law is only framed for those that are your enslavers'. (A voice, "That is true.") Men in their blind rage attacked McCormick's factory, and were shot down

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by the law in cold blood in the city of Chicago, in the protection of property. Those men were going to do some damage to a certain person's interest, who was a large property owner, therefore, the law came to his defense. And when McCormick undertook to do some injury to the interest of those who had no property, the law also came to his defense and not to the working man's defense when he, Mr. McCormick attacked him and his living." (Cries of, "No.") There is a difference. The law makes no distinctions. A million men own all the property in this country. The law has no use for the other fifty-four million." (A voice "Right enough.") "You have nothing more to do with the law except to lay hands on it and throttle it until it makes its last kick. It turns your brothers out on the way side and has degraded them until they have lost the last vestige of humanity, and they are mere things and animals. Keep your eye upon it. Throttle it. Kill it. Stop it. Do everything you can to wound it -- to impede its progress" Now, here, this word, "Stop it" must be "Stab it". "Stab it. Do everything you can to wound it -- to impede its progress. Remember, before trusting them to do anything for yourself, prepare to do it for yourself. Don't turn over your business to anybody else. No man deserves anything unless he is man enough to make an effort to lift himself from oppression." Then there was an interruption

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there on account of the storm.

Q. What was that interruption?

A. Storm clouds. Everybody started to go away.

Q. Anything said at that time?

A. Yes, sir. Mr. Parsons suggested that they adjourn over to Zepf's Hall.

Q. Did Fielden say anything?

A. Mr. Fielden said, "No, the people were trying to get information, and he would go on."

Q. He would finish there.

A. He would finish what there was then. "Is it not a fact that we have no choice as to our existence, for we can't dictate what our labor is worth. He that has to obey the will of any is a slave. Can we do anything except by a conciliatory armed resistance."

Q. Is that all?

A. No sir, I have a little more.

Q. Go ahead.

A. "Socialists are not going to declare war; but I tell you war has been declared upon us; and I ask you to get hold of anything that will help to resist the onslaught of the enemy and the usurper. The skirmish lines have met. People have been shot. Men, women and children have not been spared by the capitalists, and minions of private capital. It had no mercy; so ought you. You are called upon to defend yourselves, your lives, your future. What matters it whether you kill yourselves with work to get a little relief, or die on the battle field resisting the enemy. What is the difference? Any animal, however loathsome, will resist when

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stepped upon. Are men less than snails or worms? I have some resistance in me? I know that you have too. You have been robbed and you will be starved into a worse condition." That is all I have.

Q. That is all you have?

A. Yes sir.

Q. What did you do then?

A. Well, at that time some one alongside of me asked me if the police were not coming. I was facing this way (showing). Fielden was over there (showing), and that was down Desplaines Street (showing).

Q. Facing which way. Was it north, south, east or west?

A. Northeast.

Q. You were facing Northeast?

A. Northeast.

Q. Somebody told you that the police were coming?

A. No, he asked me if they were coming. I looked down the street and I saw a file of police about the middle of Randolph Street. As soon as I saw the police I put my paper in my pocket and ran right over on the southwest corner.

Q. Of what?

A. Of Randolph and Desplaines.

Q. When you got to the southwest corner of Randolph and Desplaines, where was the front line of police?

A. They were coming across the street.

Q. Coming across what street?

A. They hadn't got across the street; they were coming across Randolph. Just about the time I reached the side walk the front rank got to the southwest

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corner of Randolph and Desplaines.

MR. BLACK: Wait a minute. Does Mr. English mean the southwest corner or not?

A. The northwest I mean.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. The northwest corner of Randolph and Desplaines?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Where did you go then?

A. Well, I stood there until the police -- some of the police marched by, and the first thing I knew I heard an explosion. I didn't know what it was. And the next thing there was a volley of fifteen or twenty or thirty shots and I thought it was about time to leave, so I skinned down Randolph Street. While I was running I heard a great lot of shots and somebody tumbled right in front of me; but I didn't stop to see whether he was hurt.

Q. Do you know who shot first?

A. No, sir, I do not.

Q. You didn't stay to see.

A. No sir, I didn't stay to see.

Q. What was the temper of the crowd that night?

A. Just an ordinary meeting. I didn't pay any attention except to these remarks that were made by the people occasionally in the audience.

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CROSS EXAMINATION By Mr. Foster.

Q. It was what you call a peaceable and quiet meeting, was it not, for an out-door meeting?

A. I should think so, yes.

Q. There was no great turbulence that you observed there?

A. I didn't see any.

Q. And you were there all the time?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You had first to take your scratch notes the best way you could, in your pocket; and then, because of the quietness of the meeting you deliberately faced them right up and took them legitimately?

A. Yes sir, I stood there, I guess, over an hour and a quarter perhaps.

Q. Were you accustomed to hear them speak for a year or two or three years back?

A. Yes sir, I had heard them speak.

Q. Well, now was there any difference? In what respect were those speeches different from what they had been making for five or six years?

A. Well, I thought they were a little milder.

Q. All set speeches; about the same thing?

A. Yes, about the same thing.

Q. Now, hadn't you heard Parsons get off his mathematical problems before, saying about the same thing?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Talking about the laboring men; you have heard Parsons talk about the fifteen per cent. that the laboring man made, and that they were on a still hunt for the other eightyfive,

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haven't you?

A. Well, I have heard him make the same kind of speeches.

Q. On that point?

A. Yes, pretty much the same thing.

Q. They were always talking about striking the enemy, and the only way of regulating their rights was by force?

A. Yes, by force.

Q. The same kind of force that they had been talking about for a half dozen years?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You say Parsons said -- when the crowd said -- "We are ready to do it now" -- or was it Spies?

A No, that was Parsons.

Q. Parsons said -- somebody in the crowd said, "We are ready to do it now." That is to resist open war.

A. Yes sir.

Q. And he says, "You are not"?

A. He says, "You are not".

Q. Now then, there is a portion here of what Mr. Parsons said that I think you didn't read. Didn't Mr. Parsons on that occasion say: "No, you are not ready now;" and began to talk of civilization as founded upon force. And began to talk about the legal effect, and that it had to be undermined by force?

A. Yes, that was sometime after that. He said that civilization was founded on force and they could only overturn it by force; but not at that time.

Q. You heard him say that for at least five or six years?

A. Yes sir, substantially that.

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Q. You didn't hear any of them saying, or advising, that they were going to use force that night?

A. No sir.

Q. Parsons said in so many words that they were not ready? Parsons said that and neither Fielden or Spies said that they were ready?

A. I didn't understand them to say so.

Q. But Spies did say that they shouldn't make any threats?

A. Yes sir.

Q. He said that in response to a man that raised up from the audience?

A. Yes sir.

Q. And said in addition to that -- prefaced his remark by the statement that, "this is not a meeting to excite you."

A. No sir, he didn't say that.

Q. What was it?

A. He said that, the authorities seemed to have the impression was called for the purpose of raising a little row and disturbance, but that wasn't the purpose of the committee that called the meeting it was for the purpose of discussing the general situation of the eight hour strike, and what had occurred in the city for the last forty-eight hours.

Q. He said that it was not called for the purpose of raising a disturbance, substantially at that time?

A. That is what he said.

Q. You said that Parsons suggested when the cloud came over them, they had better adjourn to Zepf's Hall?

A. Yes, sir that is what I have here; and if he said different I would

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have it, because I have known Mr. Parsons for a number of years.

Q. Now, don't you know as a matter of fact that upon Parsons suggestion being defeated, that he withdrew from the wagon and went to Zepf's Hall?

A. I don't know anything about that. I didn't see him afterwards.

Q. Did you see Mrs. Parsons on the wagon at that time?

A. No sir. I didn't see her at all.

Q. Didn't see her at all.

A. No sir.

Q. Now, you say Mr. Fielden said in his speech that "The socialists are not going to declare war, but I say to you that war has been declared upon them?"

A. Yes sir.

Q. And taking that meeting as a whole, and every speech as a whole of both Spies and Parsons and Fielden, you say that they were more conciliatory, more mild, and less inflammatory than they had been accustomed to deliver for years?

A. Well, I have heard more inflammatory speeches.

Q. When you went to the Tribune office, you were instructed by the person over you to merely cut out parts of the speeches and print just what was the most inflammatory?

A. No, not at that time. Before I went to the meeting my instructions were to take only the most incendiary parts of the speeches.

Q. Yes, those are the words, "The most incendiary parts". So the idea was to have the incendiary language without having

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the conciliatory accompaniments?

A. Oh, well, enough of it to show the connection.

Q. Now, didn't Mr. Parsons -- don't you remember that Mr. Parsons said, in speaking of the Cincinnati meeting, that he had been at Cincinnati only the Sunday before and had just arrived home that day?

A. Yes, I think he said that.

Q. You remember of his stating that in his speech?

A. I remember I don't know about on Sunday. I think he said he had been in Cincinnati; had seen the procession, and told about it.

Q. Didn't he say that he had just returned home that day?

A. I don't recollect that.

Q. You don't remember?

A. No sir.

MR. FOSTER: That is all.

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. By Mr. Grinnell.

Q. Mr. English, Mr. Foster has used the expression that his speeches were mild -- these speeches were mild, and among other words, he has used the word "conciliatory".

A. Oh mildly conciliatory.

RE-CROSS EXAMINATION. By Mr. Foster.

Q. Just one question more. Mr. English did you hear Captain

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Ward's announcement to the crowd to disperse?

A. Well, I don't know whether it was Ward or Bonfield.

Q. Well, you heard the words?

A. I heard the words as I understood them.

Q. How near were you at the time?

A. I was on the northwest corner.

Q. You could hear distinctly?

A. Yes sir.

Q. And you could hear what Mr. Fielden said as you walked away?

A. Well, I didn't pay any attention to that as I left.

Q. Well, did you hear Mr. Fielden say any such words as these, in a loud tone of voice, "There come the bloodhounds now, you do your duty and I will do mine."

MR. GRINNELL: I object.

THE COURT: He may state whether he heard those words?

A. No sir, I did not.

Q. You heard nothing of that import at all?

A. No sir.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. You didn't even hear the words, "We are peaceable".

A. No sir.

Testimony of Malvern M. Thompson (first appearance), 1886 July 27. 315 312

M. M. THOMPSON,

a witness called on and sworn on behalf of the prosecution, was examined in chief by Mr. Grinnell, and testified as follows:

Q. What is your name?

A. Malvern M. Thompson.

Q. M.M.Thompson?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Wgere do you live?

A. I live at 190 South Peoria.

Q. What is your business?

A. I am at present in the dry goods business.

Q. Employed where?

A. Marshall Field & Co's.

Q. Where were you employed, or what business were you in prior to the 4th day of May?

A. I was running a grocery store at 108 S. Desplaines.

Q. Where were you that evening, on the 4th day of May last?

A. That evening I was near to W. M. Hoyt & Co's grocery house.

Q. Well, were you at the Haymarket square at any time that evening?

A. Yes, sir I walked west on Randolph Street about half past seven o'clock and there was somebody handed me a circular on the street there.

Q. A circular of what?

A. It had, "Revenge" on it and I forget what the other was. It was signed, "Our brothers" any how. And I walked along up to the corner of Randolph and Desplaines.

Q. Was it a circular similar to this (presenting the witness

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a copy of the "Revenge" circular?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Well, at what time did you get up to the corner of Desplaines and Randolph?

A. About twenty-five minutes to eight. I there met Mr. Brazelton of Newton and we stood there talking for about fifteen minutes. I asked the time; it was then ten minutes to eight.

Q. Well, did you see any of the defendants there, or were any of the defendants pointed out to you there?

A I wanted to see them and asked Brazelton if he knew any of them, and just then Mr. Schwab came along.

Q. If he knew any of who; any of what?

A. Any of the speakers that was going to speak at that meeting.

Q. Was Schwab any one of these defendants?

A. He pointed him out. He came rushing along Desplaines Street in a great hurry.

Q. Was Schwab any one of these defendants?

A. Yes sir, the gentleman right there, the third from the end.

Q. Well?

A. He came along and I said, "I believe I will go down to the police station and see what is there."

Objected to.

THE COURT: Don't state that. Strike it out.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. What did you do then, and what did you see?

A. I then went over on the east side of Desplaines Street; I walked up and walked back again to the corner of the alley, or near the corner of the alley.

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Q. Near the corner of what alley?

A. The alley just at the back of Crane Bros.

Q. Walked up on what street?

A. Walked on Desplaines Street near the corner of Lake, and came back and stood just back of this alley.

Q. Did you see any of these defendants then?

A. No sir, not at that time; I did later.

Q. Then what did you see?

A. Then Spies got up on the wagon and asked for Parsons. Parsons didn't respond. He then got down and the two men walked in the alley; that is, Schwab and Spies.

Q. Walked in what alley?

A. In the alley that I was standing near the corner of at the back of Crane Bros.

Q. Near which the wagon was situated?

A. Yes sir, the wagon was back a little further. And the first word that I heard between them was, "Pistols".

Q. Between who?

A. Between Schwab and Spies. And the next word was, "police". I think I heard, "police" twice, or "pistols" twice; one or the other, I then walked just a little nearer the edge of the alley; and just then Spies said: "Do you think one is enough, or hadn't we better go and get more?" There was no answer to that that I could hear. They then walked out of the alley and walked south on Desplaines Street and west on the north side of Randolph to Halsted, and

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cut across the street and went over to the south west corner and were there about three minutes, came out of that crowd again, and came back.

Q. Who did?

A. Spies and Schwab.

Q. Well?

A. On the way up I didn't catch much of the conversation; but on the way back as they neared Union Street I just heard the word, "police" used again. And just then I went past them and Schwab said: "now, if they come, we will give it to them." Spies replied that he thought they were afraid to bother with them.

MR. ZEISLER: They were what?

A. Afraid to bother them. And then they came on down and Spies -- just before they got up near the wagon they met a third party; and they bunched right together there, south of the alley, and appeared to get right in a huddle; and there was something passed between them; what it was I couldn't say.

Q. Between whom?

A. Between Spies and the third man.

Q. Look at that picture (handing the witness a cabinet picture of Schnaubelt) and see if that resembles the man that you say made the third?

A. (After examining the picture) Yes sir, I think that is the man.

Q. Well, what did Spies do then?

MR. BLACK: Q. You say that is the third man, do you?

A. I think that his beard was a little longer than in this picture.

Q. You say this young man was the third man?

A. Yes sir,

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this is the picture of the third man.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. What did Spies do then?

A. Spies then got up on the wagon, and commenced to make a speech.

Q. Did you see the third man afterwards that evening?

A. I saw him on the wagon.

Q. What did the third man do that you saw in that crowd of three?

A. Well, whatever they gave him, I don't know what it was, he stuck it in his pocket on the right hand side; and Spies got up on the wagon, and I think that he got up right after him.

Q. Did you notice anything about his position, -- the especial position and conduct of that third man afterwards?

A. Well, I noticed him sitting on the wagon.

Q. Anything in his hands?

Objected to as leading.

THE COURT: Q. The question is, did you notice anything about his appearance?

A. I only noticed that he kept his hands in his pockets.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. How long did you see him there?

A. I saw him there for probably -- probably an hour, I should say.

Q. How long did you stay there?

A. I staid there until Mr. Fielden just commenced to speak, then I left.

Q. Then you were not there when the bomb was thrown?

A. No sir.

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Q. You went away from there?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Did you hear the report or sound of it?

A. No, sir. I didn't know anything about what happened until the next morning.

CROSS EXAMINATION By Mr. Foster.

Q. Mr. Thompson, were you running a grocery store for yourself?

A. Yes sir.

Q. And you quit that business for yourself, and hired out as a clerk?

A. I didn't say that I quit.

Q. You hired out as a clerk, didn't you?

A. Yes sir.

Q. For Marshall Field & Co.?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Where?

A. At the retail store, coner of State and Washington.

Q. In what department?

A. In the hosiery department.

Q. In the hosiery department?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Well, did you close out your grocery?

A. I had it closed out for me.

Q. Oh, yes, the sheriff helped you to quit the business? Were you acquainted with Marshall Field before?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You were closed out by a chattel mortgage, were you not?

A. No sir.

Q. By an execution?

A. By an execution.

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Q. Under a judgment?

Objected to.

A. Yes sir, closed out on a bill.

Q. Yes, closed out by a bill, and then an execution, and then the sheriff, and then he had the grocery?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Did you know Marshall Field before?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Did you apply personally?

A. I did not.

Q. Did anybody apply for you?

A. I applied to Marshall Field for the first time.

Q. Did anybody apply for you?

A. Yes sir.

MR. GRINNELL: Q. You used to work for Marshall Field before?

A. I worked there before.

MR. BLACK: We object.

THE COURT: Let them go on without interruption.

MR. FOSTER: Q. Mr. Thompson, you never had seen any of these men before that night?

A. I never had saw any of them before in my life, no sir, not to my knowledge.

Q. And you first saw Mr. Schwab?

A. He is the first man that I saw.

Q. He was pointed out to you?

A. He was pointed out to me by Mr. Brazelton of Newton.

Q. Now which way was he going?

A. He was going north.

Q. You followed him?

A. No sir.

Q. What time was it when you saw him first?

A. It was, I

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should say, about fifteen minutes of eight.

Q. Fifteen minutes of eight?

A. Yes sir, of eight when I first saw him.

Q. When did you see him next?

A. I saw him next, I should judge at a quarter past eight.

Q. Where was he then?

A. Then he was with Mr. Spies.

Q. Where was he then?

A. In the alley.

Q. Crane's alley?

A. Well, when I first saw him, I saw him going in the alley.

Q. When you first saw him you saw him going in the alley. Was there a crowd congregating at that time?

A. There was a crowd there, yes.

Q. Where were you when you saw him going in the alley?

A. I was standing right near, or alongside of it.

Q. You were not in the alley?

A. No sir.

Q. Alongside of it?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. South or north?

A. North.

Q. South or north of the wagon in which Spies was talking first?

A. I was standing up against the building.

Q. Against the building?

A. Yes sir.

Q. So you couldn't see down the alley?

A. No sir, I couldn't see down the alley unless I turned my face to it.

Q. Was that the first time that you had seen Spies?

A. That was the first time that I had seen Spies until he

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got up on the wagon.

Q. That was the first time that you saw him?

A. That was the second time.

Q. When was the first time?

A. The first time was when he got up on the wagon.

Q. That was the first time that you had ever seen him?

A. That was the first time that I had ever seen him.

Q. Who did you enquire of as to who it was?

A. I couldn't tell you who.

Q. Now were you specially interested in knowing Schwab and Spies at that time?

A. Not especially. I wasn't especially interested; just only had a mere curiosity.

Q. Only had a mere curiosity?

A. That is all.

Q. Mr. Spies got up and enquired for Parsons and then got out of the wagon?

A. Yes sir, it was only just a minute or so lapse of time.

Q. He didn't go north when he got out of the wagon?

A. No sir.

Q. He didn't go up to Sepf's Hall?

A. No sir.

Q. He got down off the wagon, and went into the alley?

A. He went into the alley back of Crane's.

Q. You were standing near the alley at that time?

A. Yes sir, a little further north.

Q. How much further north?

A. I was probably three feet

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at farthest, and I moved down to within half a foot.

Q. You were within three probably at farthest, and you moved down to within half a foot?

A. Yes, sir, of the alley.

Q. Now then when you saw Spies and Schwab go into the alley you trailed in after them?

A. No sir.

Q. You did not?

A. No sir.

Q. How far into the alley did they go?

A. Well, right around the corner of the alley.

Q. Right around the corner of the alley?

A. It couldn't have been more than two or three feet.

Q. You couldn't see them then?

A. I could if I had looked down the alley.

Q. You didn't look?

A. No sir.

Q. You didn't look at any time, either then or afterwards?

A. I did when they came out.

Q. You did when they came out?

A. Yes sir.

Q. When they came out there was three of them?

A. Only two.

Q. Only two?

A. Only two.

Q. Now then did you ever talk with Mr. Schwab?

A. I never did.

Q. Don't you know that Mr. Schwab can speak with but very little English, and he and Mr. Spies always talk German when they speak together?

A. No sir.

Q. You don't know that?

A. No sir.

Q. Did you ever speak German?

A. No, sir.

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Q. Did you ever hear him speak German?

A. I never heard him speak German, but I heard him speak in English once.

Q. On that occasion, the conversation you have been telling about was in English?

A. It was in English, because I didn't understand German.

Q. Anything that you would hear, of course, would be in English?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, Mr. Thompson what was the conversation; what was the thread of it; what was the narrative of it?

A. Well, the first word that I heard was "pistols", and then "police".

Q. Was that spoken in German or English?

A. That was spoken in English, I understood it that way, anyhow.

Q. Now then what were the other words; what were the words preceding "pistols"?

A. That was the first word that I heard.

Q. It started at "pistols"?

A. It started at -- that was the first word that I heard.

Q. And then "police"?

A. Then "police."

Q. Now what words were between those two?

A. I didn't hear any words.

Q. Just those two words?

A. Just those two words "police" and "pistols".

Q. Just those two words "police" and "pistols"?

A. Yes sir.

Q. And how long were they in there?

A. Probably two or

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three minutes.

Q. Probably two or three minutes. The following conversation you could hear, for they were near enough to you?

A. I just caught that part. When I drew up to within a foot of the alley, I heard them ask, "Is one enough?"

Q. What did they say besides "pistols" and "police"?

A. They said, "Do you think one enough or had we better go for more?"

Q. One what?

A. I don't know.

Q. Who said that?

A. That was Mr, Schwab.

Q. They were not talking about Spies going out to Deering's to make a speech; and about the question of whether one speaker was enough, or whether they should send for more?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. What were they talking about? Did you learn from the conversation what they were talking about?

A. I didn't learn no sir, but of course I had my own opinions.

Q. Your opinion may not be worth a straw.

Objected to.

Q. At the time they were coming out, you heard only the two words "pistols" and "police" and nothing else?

A. Nothing else. That was when they were coming out.

Q. And you heard Spies and Schwab going together and talking together that night?

A. Well, I know --

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Q. (Interrupting.) I ask you if you heard Spies and Schwab talking together that night?

A. Will you let me answer you? You can't wait.

Q. I will if you will answer in a correct way?

A. Well, the fact that I never saw --

(Interrupting) I didn't ask you about the fact that you never saw: I ask you do you swear now to this jury that you heard Spies and Schwab talking together that night?

A. That first man and third man I did. (pointing to Spies and Schwab.)

Q. You do swear that?

A. Yes sir.

Q. And that they spoke in English?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You were before the coroner's inquest were you not?

A. I was, yes sir.

Q. And testified?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You didn't tell this before the coroner, did you?

A. I think I did.

Q. What say?

A. I think I did.

Q. You think you did?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Your name is M. M. Thompson?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Now you remember of talking -- you remember of testifying for the coroner?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Testifying in regard to what you now claim you heard the night before?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Now was all the conversation that you heard between these

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men, all that you say you heard, in the English language?

A. It was in English or I couldn't understand if it was in German.

Q. Now then you heard no words spoken in German?

A. Some, I did.

Q. In this same conversation?

A. I did, going up Randolph Street.

Q. I am not talking about Randolph Street. I am talking about around the corner there; when you were there at the corner; where you say you were at the corner?

A. No sir.

Q. You heard no words spoken in English?

A. I heard no words spoken in English.

Q. Now, before the coroner didn't you testify as to the words, "revolver" and "pistols" and say that a part of the conversation was in German, and that you couldn't understand it?

A. I did not.

Q. You didn't use that language before the coroner?

A. I did not.

Q. Did you know Mr. Schwab's voice at that time?

A. No, I can't say that I did know his voice.

Q. Did you know Mr. Spies voice at that time?

A. No, only from what I heard him ask on the wagon.

Q. Well, did you know it enough so you could recognize his voice?

A. Yes, sir, I think I did.

Q. Which one was it said "revolver."

A. I think it was

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Speies.. He said "pistols".

Q. "Pistols". Which one was it said "police"?

A. He did.

Q. You didn't see him when he said it?

A. No, I didn't see him. I wasn't looking directly at him.

Q. The corner of the building was in the way?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You couldn't see him without going out there?

A. Without putting my head around the corner.

Q. Then as a matter of fact, as I understand, your testimony is they went into the alley out of sight of you, from where you then stood?

A. They may have been out of sight, but not out of hearing.

Q. Did I ask you whether they went out of hearing? Now answer my questions and we will get along swimmingly.

A. Yes sir.

Q. Did they go out of sight when they went into the alley?

A. They went out of sight when they went into the alley, yes sir.

Q. Now, how long was it after they went into the alley and went out of sight that you heard this conversation?

A. It was all done in three minutes, I should judge.

Q. Now then, how long was it after they went into the alley and went out of sight that you heard the first remark?

A. About a minute and a half.

Q. About a minute and a half. Now then, they go into the

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alley and out of sight. (Counsel produces his watch) Now the watch begins to go. I am going to wait a minute and a half. Then they must have been talking for a minute and a half in there, before they came out for they were probably three minutes altogether; were they?

A. I presume they were. It was about three minutes, I should judge, from the time that I first saw them go in, until they came out.

Q. Yes, you have answered my question. Then they came out and went to where the wagon was?

A. No sir, they came out and walked south on Desplaines Street.

Q. They came out and walked south on Desplaines Street to Randolph, then you followed them?

A. I followed them from the time they went out.

Q. Yes, you followed them when they went out?

A. Yes, within a few feet behind them.

Q. You had no particular object in view in finding out who it was that was going to speak that night on that occasion, had you?

A. Not necessarily, no sir.

Q. You were not employed as a detective, were you?

A. No sir, just out of mere curiosity.

Q. Pure and mere curiosity?

A. That is all.

Q. And you did go up there by the wagon again from which you understood the speaking was to take place as a matter of curiosity to hear what the speakers said?

A. Yes, I wanted

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to hear one of them.

Q. Now then Mr. Spies had already been into the wagon, called for Mr. Parsons, and said he would go and get him, hadn't he?

A. I heard him ask if Mr. Parsons was in the crowd.

Q. Yes. Didn't he say that he would go and get him?

A. That is all I heard.

Q. You didn't hear him say that he would go and get him?

A. I didn't hear him say that.

Q. You didn't see him get out of the wagom immedoately, and go to wards Zepf's Hall?

A. No sir.

Q. You didn't see that?

A. No sir.

Q. Now what part of the alley did they go in from; from the south part of the alley of the north part of the alley, when they went in. How is that?

A. Probably towards the north of the alley. It was probably towards the north of the center of the alley.

Q. I don't want any probably about it. If you know what part of the alley they went in, I want you to tell me?

A. I say probably north of the center of the alley.

Q. They didn't go in close by the building?

A. No, they didn't go close to the building; that is, when they walked in.

Q. Where did they come out? What part of the alley; on the south side of the alley?

A. They cam out just about the center of the alley. They walked south west.

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Q. They walked south coming out on Desplaines Street?

A. Yes, but in coming out of the alley, they would walk south west.

Q. That is they would turn the corner south coming out of the alley. They cut off the corner?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Without going to the center of the sidewalk like a military company in marching south, they cut off the corner?

A. Yes sir, but starting at the edge of Crane Bros. building they came out to the edge on the side of the alley, and they would naturally walk south west.

Q. I didn't ask you how they would naturally walk, but how did they walk?

A. They walked south west.

Q. Now did you hear any conversation after you saw them emerge from the alley, right then, when you saw them go south?

A. No sir.

Q. As they started to go down south?

A. No sir.

Q. As they started to go down south you trailed after them - trailing after them?

A. Yes sir.

Q. And you were following up pretty close?

A. Yes sir, I started pretty close and in fact in one place I was pretty close alongside of them.

Q. You intended to hear the speeches of course?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Yet you followed them away?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Without any more interest, than just as a looker on?

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A. Well, I thought probably at that time speeches were going to be held at some other place.

Q. Had you heard the announcement that the meeting was going to be held anywhere else?

A. No sir.

Q. Well, how far did you follow them?

A. I followed them down on Desplaines to Randolph.

Q. Now what time was it then?

A. Oh, it was a quarter past eight.

Q. A quarter past eight still?

A. About that.

Q. There they met and separated, didn't they?

A. No sir.

Q. What did they do after that?

A. They walked west on Randolph Street to Halsted.

Q. And you trailing after them all the time?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did anybody else go besides you?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. The crowd was up, about the wagon wasn't it? The principal crowd was at the wagon?

A. No sir, I can't say it was. The principal crowd was on Randolph Street.

Q. Wasn't it in a place where a large number of men were collected in a bunch about the wagon where Parsons had been called for?

A. Yes, there were more there.

Q. That is true?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You went down south to Randolph and west on Randolph to Union some blocks?

A. Two blocks.

Q. Two blocks?

A. Yes sir.

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Q. And those two men were going along, and you were trailing along after them?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Part of the time beside of them, part of the time ahead and past them; but all the time close to them?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Well, when they came down there two blocks there wasn't much of a crowd at that end, were there?

A. Yes, there was a few people there.

Q. There was a few people there, but I say, there wasn't much of a crowd?

A. No sir.

Q. And still you were tagging after them looking for the meeting?

A. Yes sir.

Q. No other object than looking for the meeting?

A. No sir.

Q. Just simply to find where the crowd or the audience were assembled, you were tagging after them two blocks?

A. Yes sir.

Q. When you got down there, there was nobody there except probably two or three men?

A. There was probably twenty or thirty.

Q. Just as you would see here at the bridge any moment; a situation like that?

A. Yes sir.

Q. There was no speeches there, no wagons, no dry goods boxes, nor obstructions, was there?

A. Not that I saw.

Q. Then that would make nearly two blocks and a half that you had been following after these men?

A. Oh, we walked two

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blocks and a half west, and the same back.

Q. Two blocks and a half west, and two blocks and a half back?

A. And the same back. That would make about five blocks altogether.

Q. You went with them; did they see you?

A. I don't know as they did.

Q. Nothing to prevent their seeing you?

A. Nothing whatever

Q. Now when was it that you heard the next conversation with them after you started trailing after these two men?

A. Well, it was near Union Street.

Q. Where is that?

A. That is between Desplaines and Halsted.

Q. That was after you had gone half a block south, and a whole block west?

A. I had gone a half a block west. It was on my way back.

Q. Now you were right close up to them all this time?

A. Oh I wasn't right close to them.

Q. Well, you were either walking just behind them, just beside of them, or just in front of them all the time?

A. Yes sir.

Q. And you had gone half a block south, half a block west and a block back?

A. Yes, a block back.

Q. Now when they were going on down the street, what were they saying -- going west I mean?

A. I couldn't hear a word

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of what they did say, when they were going west.

Q. Were they talking in German?

A. No, I don't think they were, because I didn't hear anything, because I couldn't get close enough to hear.

Q. If you went by them and passed them and ahead of them, why couldn't you hear?

A. I didn't say that I went by them and ahead of them when they were going west. I got ahead of them at Union Street coming back.

Q. Didn't you get ahead of them going west?

A. No sir.

Q. And didn't you pass them as they went west?

A. I didn't pass them going west.

Q. Then they walked ahead of you, because you hadn't passed them going west, had you?

A. We all stopped on the south west corner of Halsted and they came out of the crowd, and I came out after them; so they got ahead of me.

Q. Then you were all in a bunch there together?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Was it light there; were the street lamps lighted?

A. Yes sir., it was.

Q. And when they got down on Halsted Street, you say they met another man?

A. No sir.

Q. You don't say that?

A. No sir.

Q. Didn't meet anybody?

A. I say there was a crowd there.

Q. You say there was probably twenty-five people there on the street?

A. Yes sir.

Q. There wasn't more than twenty-five, was there?

A. I

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don't know exactly how many, I should judge twenty-five.

Q. Did they have any talk with that crowd, either of them?

A. I didn't see that they did.

Q. You were watching to see, weren't you?

A. Yes, but they were right in the thickest of the crowd, and I stood on the sidewalk.

Q. How far were you at that time, when they were in the thickest of the crowd of twenty-five people?

A. How far was I from there?

Q. Yes.

A. About ten feet.

Q. Did you hear either of them say a word?

A. I didn't hear either of them say a word.

Q. Then they started to go back?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Coming back, they came back right where you were, didn't they?

A. No, sir.

Q. Or very near where you were?

A. I was standing on the edge of the crossing on Randolph Street, and thay came on Halsted Street up to the crossing.

Q. How far from them were you when they started to go back?

A. Well, I was about six feet behind them.

Q. You were about six feet behind them?

A. Yes.

Q. Then you started right back?

A. I started right back.

Q. Then what were they talking about?

A. I didn't see them talking about anything just at that time.

Q. They didn't say a word?

A. No sir.

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Q. They cam back a block you say, and you were tagging right along after them again?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You say there was nobody else following them besides you?

A. No sir.

Q. They didn't talk between themselves either in German or English?

A. Yes sir, they did.

Q. Now what was it they said?

A. I couldn't hear what they said until they came to Union Street and then I crossed right by them, or got near them and got past them.

Q. Was it light at that time so they could see you?

A. Yes sir.

Q. And you could see them?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You could see their countenances, and see who they were, of course?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Had the same view of them as they had of you?

A. Exactly.

Q. Now what was the first thing they said?

A. The first thing was going down Randolph Street.

Q. At Union Street?

A. The first thing I heard him say -- Schwab say was, "Now if they come we will give it to them."

Q. Schwab said "Now if they come we will give it to them." Now why didn't you tell us that before?

A. I did.

Q. You told that before, here in your direct examination?

A. That is what I said.

Q. If who came?

A. I don't know who.

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Q. That they would give it to whom?

A. I don't know who.

Q. Schwab said that?

A. Schwab said that; and Spies said he didn't think they would bother them because they were afraid.

Q. What language was that conversation in?

A. That was carried on in the English language.

Q. Then you had gone by them, and was just in front of them at that time, wasn't you?

A. Yes sir -- I wasn't exactly in front of them, no sir, I was behind them when I heard it first, but they kind of slacked and then I got by them.

Q. Then you say it was when you were going by them?

A. Yes on Union Street.

Q. Then you say you were going by them when Schwab made this remark?

A. Yes, sir; I was making my gait quicker to get by them.

Q. You were not by them?

A. No sir.

Q. Just then Schwab made this remark?

A. Schwab made that remark, and when I got about three feet by them, he finished it.

Q. How many feet?

A. Three feet.

Q. I suppose that you didn't gain much on them?

A. No sir, because they were walking pretty fast themselves.

Q. So you were just three feet altogether ahead of them, when you heard them?

A. Yes sir.

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Q. And it was light there?

A. Yes, the gas lamps were lit.

Q. And the store lamps were lit there?

A. Yes sir, I suppose they were, if there were any stores there. I didn't notice.

Q. And you were in plain sight of them, at least when this conversation took place?

A. Well, I don't know.

Q. Well, wasn't you then at the time this conversation took place in which Schwab said, "We will give it to them"; and Spies said, "I don't think that they will molest us, because they are afraid" in plain sight of them?

A. No sir.

Q. You were behind them?

A. I said I was going by them.

Q. You said you were going by them when Schwab made the remark that, "We will give it to them?"

A. Yes sir.

Q. Then you were just in front of them?

Q. Then you were not in front of them at the time Schwab made the remark, "We will give it to them"?

A. No sir.

Q. Then where were you when Schwab finished the remark, "We will give it to them?"

A. I was three feet in front of them when Schwab finished the remark.

Q. That is, at the time when Schwab finished this remark, "We will give it to them" you were three feet ahead of them?

A. Yes, but the remark started when I was behind them.

Q. What was the remark?

A Spies said -- or Schwab started and said, "Now when they come we will give it to them."

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Q. Now did he have to speak it very fast?

A. No sir, he didn't, he spoke it just about that fast.

Q. Now just speak it about as he did?

A. (Witness repeats the remark.)

Q. Just in an ordinary tone?

A. Just about.

Q. Not a loud tone?

A. Well, nothing extraordinarily loud.

Q. Nothing extraordinarily loud?

A. Nothing more than anybody would carry on in an ordinary street conversation.

Q. Well, loud enough for you to hear it?

A. Yes sir.

Q. And then Spies replied; and then you were ahead of them when Spies spoke, wasn't you?

A. Yes, sir; I was ahead.

Q. Then you were in plain view of them at the time?

A. Yes sir; I think I was in plain view.

Q. Spies made the remark, "I don't think they will, because they are afraid". Now you still followed along after them?

A. Yes, I still followed along ahead of them.

Q. Well, about how much ahead?

A. Well, then, when I got there I came on down Desplaines Street.

Q. How far ahead?

A. Probably when I got to the corner of Desplaines Street I was ten or fifteen feet ahead.

Q. Yes, but you were within hearing distance just the same?

A. No sir.

Q. Did you hear any talk that took place between Mr. Schwab and Mr. Spies in their conversation down there, other than

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what you have told that occurred at Union Street?

A. Nothing whatever.

Q. Now you were sworn as a witness the very next day before the coroner, at the examination before the coroner?

A. Yes sir.

Q. I will ask you whether you stated one word in that examination about over hearing the conversation between Spies and Schwab at Union Street?

A. I did, at or about Union Street.

Q. You swear that you did?

A. I did.

Q. Before the coroner?

A. If I didn't then --

Q. Never mind whether you didn't or not now: Do you remember that you did?

A. I do.

Q. That is all right. And while Schwab said these words, "Now if they come we will give it to them", you passed from three feet behind them to three feet in fron of them?

A. I didn't say that, sir.

Q. Well, will you tell us what you said, or what the truth was?

A. I said I was about to pass them.

Q. Yes, you were behind them, but attempting to pass them?

A. I may have gone two three or four or five feet before I came past them; and then it may have only been two feet. I don't just remember the distance.

Q. You were behind them when Schwab commenced to speak?

A. Yes sir.

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Q. And then you were three feet ahead of them when Schwab finished his remark?

A. When Spies had finished his remark.

Q. When Spies finished?

A. When he finished his remarks.

Q. Why, don't you know that you had passed by them, and was three feet ahead of them when Schwab had finished his remark and that Spies' was made while you were in front and in Spies' open sight?

A. No sir, I said nothing of the kind.

Q. I didn't ask you what you said. The court won't allow me to ask you that or I would ask you very quick. Is not that true that you passed them and got three feet ahead of them before Schwab finished all that he said; and Spies said all that he said when you were past them and got ahead of them three feet. Is not that true.

A. That is not the case.

Q. Very well then, we will leave the jury to determine what you said. Now, sir, Mr. Thompson, I will again ask you -- your name is M. M. Thompson?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Is that your signature Mr. Thompson (pointing)?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Is that your signature Mr. Thompson (pointing)?

A. I think it is.

Q. Well, have you any doubt of it?

A. No sir.

Q. It is your signature, is it?

A. It is, yes sir.

Q. Now I want to ask you Mr. Thompson, whether you said one word before the coroner in regard to a conversation at or

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about Union Street, in regard to what you have testified to now?

MR. GRINNELL: You have already asked him that question and it has been answered. He said he did.

MR. FOSTER: Yes, but I want to call his attention to his signature.

THE WITNESS: I will answer again; I did.

Q. You started to say awhile ago that if you didn't?

A. I said if I didn't. I was going to say that it was an oversight on my part or else it was because nobody asked me any questions.

Q. You say that now?

A. No sir, I don't say that now, I say that I did say that before the coroner's inquest.

Q. You say that you did say it before the coroner's inquest?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Then why were you going to volunteer the remark that if you didn't it was because we hadn't asked you?

Objected to; objection sustained and exception.

Q. Now when you got back to the corner of Randolph and Desplaines which corner did you say that you stopped on when you say you were ten or fifteen feet ahead?

A. The north west corner.

Q. Mr. Schwab and Mr. Spies came up, didn't they?

A. Yes sir

Q. They were talking as they came up?

A. I can't say that they were.

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Q. Which way did they go when they came to where you were standing?

A. They went right through the street.

Q. They went right through the street?

A. They didn't come directly to where I was standing.

Q. They started diagonally to the wagon?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Yes they started directly to the wagon?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You started after them?

A. No sir.

Q. You didn't start after them?

A. No sir.

Q. You stayed there at the corner?

A. I stayed there at the corner.

Q. Were they, or not walking together in company?

A. Yes sir., so far as I went after them.

Q. Did you go after them until they got on to the wagon?

A. No sir.

Q. That is the last you saw of them?

A. That was the last time that I saw Schwab, I saw Spies when he got up to make a speech.

Q. That was the last time you saw Schwab?

A. Oh, no, that wasn't the last time that I saw him that night.

Q. That was the last time that you saw him on that particular occasion until you saw him go out of sight?

A. That was the last time that I saw him until they were out of sight, and the third man met them.

Q. Now, they went towards the wagon and they went out of

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sight, didn't they, from you?

A. Yes, after they met this third party they went out of sight.

Q. I am not asking you about the third party. Don't get into your story so far. But I say I suppose that they got out of your sight. They went towards the wagon until hey got out of sight?

A. No sir, they didn't get out of my sight.

Q. You kept them in sight?

A. I was almost to the wagon south of the alley -- almost to the alley.

Q. You stopped at the alley. When they got on to the wagon you didn't follow them?

A. I went on the sidewalk, and there they met.

Q. Will you answer my questions, or won't you?

A. Yes sir.

Counsel's manner of questioning the witness objected to by the court.

Q. Now sir, you stopped at the corner -- the north west corner of Desplaines and Randolph Streets and stood there as they passed, didn't you?

A. Yes sir.

Q. And they went across lots -- across the street?

A. Yes sir.

Q. And you after them?

A. No, sir.

Q. Didn't you just say you did?

Counsel's manner of questioning the witness again objected to by the court.

Q. Now then, if there are no further suggestions I want you

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to tell the jury whether you followed them over to the wagon when they started to cross?

A. I stood on the corner when they came up; and when they came up they started across the street and I stood there just to let them cross the street. And I started after them because I wanted to get down to the wagon.

Q. They started across where?

A. They started across Desplaines.

Q. Right down to the sidewalk?

A. No sir.

Q. Did they go straight across the sidewalk?

A. They didn't go straight from there, they went slanting.

Q. Well, did they go to the corner of Desplaines and Randolph and cross the street to the east side of Desplaines Street?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Then they didn't go diagonally to the wagon?

A. They went diagonally across the street but not diagonally across to the wagon.

Q. Well, how much on the north did they go -- to the northward, as they went across the street?

A. Well, I can't tell how much to the northward they went.

Q. It was eastward? Wasn't it more eastward and northward?

A. No, I should say more northward than eastward.

Q. And you followed after?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Never let them go out of your sight?

A. They couldn't get out of my sight.

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Q. I didn't ask you whether they could get out of your sight I asked you whether they did or not?

A. No sir.

Q. How near did you get to them?

A. I didn't catch up with them at all.

Q. How near did you get to where they were?

A. I was about as far as from here to that chair (pointing).

Q. In feet?

A. About eight or ten feet.

Q. Then you got within eight or ten feet of them. Now where were they when you got within eight or ten feet of them? A

A. They were standing on the sidewalk; they stopped right there.

Q. Right there, where?

A. Right about five feet above the south coner of the alley.

Q. That is, five feet south of the south line of Crane's alley?

A. Yes sir, five feet south; about that.

Q. Now south you mean, you don't mean north?

A. I mean south.

Q. You mean south?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And they stopped there?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Now, there was quite a crowd around there, wasn't there?

A. No sir.

Q. There wasn't any crowd there at all?

A. There was a good many people on the other side of the street -- on the west side of the street -- but there wasn't probably more than half

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a dozen people on the east side of the street.

Q. It was light there?

A. The gas was lit there.

Q. Now, about this time what time had it got to be. Could you pass a judgment on that?

A. I don't believe it was more than twenty minutes past eight, or twenty-five.

Q. When you got up within eight or ten feet of them did you stop?

A. I did.

Q. And you looked at them?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Within a distance of about ten feet you say?

A. Eight or ten feet.

Q. They were in plain view of you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You were in plain view of them?

A. No sir.

Q. Eh?

A. No sir, they couldn't see me very well.

Q. They couldn't see you?

A. I don't think they did see me.

Q. You could see them perfectly plain, but they didn't see you perfectly plain?

A. They could see me if they looked up.

Q. Now, don't you know there are some electric lights there that light up the whole way, on the Lyceum building?

A. I think there are some electric lights there.

Q. And they would look towards the electric light if they looked towards you, wouldn't they?

Objected to.

Q. You were between them and the electric light, wasn't you?

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A. I was, yes sir.

Q. And they stopped there?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Now then, what was the next thing that took place?

A. The next thing was that they met the third man there.

Q. They met the third man?

A. This man there (referring to picture of Schnaubelt).

Q. That is the man. They met Schnaubelt there?

A. They met Schnaubelt.

Q. Did you ever see Schnaubelt before?

A. I never did.

Q. Did you ever see that picture before?

A. I have, yes sir.

Q. Where?

A. I can't tell you whether it was Mr. Furthman that showed it to me.

Q. Or whether it was somebody else. Well, who showed it to you?

A. Well, I kind of think it was Mr. Furthman.

Q. That is he handed you the picture and asked you whether that wasn't the man that you saw meet Spies and Schwab, didn't he?

A. He did not.

Q. When was it that he showed you that picture?

A. I don't recollect when.

Q. About when?

A. It has been over a week ago I judge.

Q. A week ago?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Well, wasn't it a month or two months ago?

A. No, I don't think I saw -- no, I didn't see it a month ago.

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Q. You didn't see it a month ago?

A. No, sir, it has been something over a week ago.

Q. The man you saw had longer whiskers than this picture, did he?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Did you know Mr. Schnaubelt?

A. No sir, I never saw him.

Q. And when that picture was shown you didn't know that it was Schnaubelt?

A. I didn't now know that it was the man.

Q. You didn't know whether it was a man?

A. I didn't know whether it was the man.

Q. Now, when the third party came up which way did he come from?

A. The third party came from the east.

Q. From the east?

A. From the east. This side of the alley. He must have been standing against the house, I should suppose, and he walked west on the sidewlk.

Q. He walked to the sidewalk to the front of the sidewalk?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Which way was his face then?

A. His back -- his face was towards the west and his back was towards where he came from.

Q. Then if you were diagonally across from the north west corner of Desplaines and Randolph Streets, was Schnaubelt facing you?

A. No sir, but the time that I -- I had my -- he had his back to me.

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Q. He also had his back to you?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Now, did they dress up in a line and rush into the alley with their backs to you?

A. No sir, they did not. One had his back south, one north and one east. That is about the way they stood.

Q. Which one had his back north?

A. Spies had his back north.

Q. You had come diagonally, right from the direction of Desplaines Street, right in the direction of where they were going and stopped?

A. After I got up on the sidewalk I walked after them some little distance and then came close to the house.

Q. What were they talking about when the three met there?

A. I didn't hear what they were talking about.

Q. They came diagonally across the corner and they came to a certain point and they stopped, and you stopped ten feet back of them, now didn't you?

A. The two came across.

Q. And you stopped ten feet back of them?

A. The other man came up there.

Q. I am not talking about the other man. You stopped ten feet back of them, didn't you; eight or ten feet from them?

A. I said eight or ten feet away from them, not back of them.

Q. You followed them right up on the line that they took.

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You took the same angle that they did, didn't you?

A. I don't know as I did.

Q. Well, about the same?

A. I might have gone straight across. I don't know whether I went straight across or came diagonally across.

Q. You mightn have gone stright across east?

A. Yes sir.

Q. And they came diagonally east?

A. Yes sir, when they stopped.

Q. And they were within ten feet of you all the time?

A. I didn't say all the time, I said when they stopped they were within ten feet. I should judge so.

Q. You said you followed them right up?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Did you take the same trail that they took or did you go directly east, when they came up?

A. I didn't take the same trail.

Q. But you followed them right across?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Directly across the street?

A. No, I don't think I went directly across the street.

Q. Which way did you go?

A. I might have made an angle to the north, but probably not the same as they did, I don't think.

Q. But when they stopped you were within eight or ten feet of them?

A. Well, when they stopped I was probably more than that behind them. I got within ten feet of them and

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then I stopped.

Q. You were on the sidewalk near the curb stone?

A. Yes sir.

Q. They were on the sidewalk near the curb stone?

A. They were on the sidewalk more to the curb from the street.

Q. So that you were within eight or ten feet of them you were directly south of these two men?

A. I wasn't south, I said partly south.

Q. Directly south?

A. Not directly south.

Q. What I ask is, you got up about near the curb stone, and not in the middle of the sidewalk, nearly directly south?

A. Yes, sir, I suppose it was nearly directly south.

Q Spies stood directly to the north?

A. Spies stood directly to the north which would bring his face to me.

Q. Then why couldn't he see you standing there?

A. I don't know but what he did.

Q. Didn't you say that you could see them and they couldn't see you?

A. I said I didn't know whether they stood where they could see me or not.

Q. So then Mr. Spies' back was from you to the north, and his face towards you at the time that you say that you were eight or ten feet from them?

A. He was looking south.

Q. And his face towards you?

A. Yes sir, his face towards me.

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Q. So the electric light was beyond you?

A. Yes sir, I don't know that there was an electric light there.

Q. Well, now then, will you have the kindness to tell the jury again what was said there?

A. I didn't hear a word.

Q. Didn't hear a word?

A. Not a word.

Q. How long did you stand there and how long did they stand there?

A. About thirty seconds.

Q. Yes. And who was it that gave somebody something, and who was the somebody that received it, and what was the something that was given?

A. That I can't tell. I can tell that it was Spies that handed this man (indicating the picture of Schnaubelt) something. And this man put it into his pocket, and Spies got up on to the wagon and made a speech.

Q. Yes, but not right then did he?

A. Right then and there.

Q. No, no. Not right then and there. You don't mean that do you?

A. Just as quick as he could get to the wagon.

Q. Yes, but he went up north across the alley, and got up.

A. Well, it was only a short ways.

Q. And you saw Mr. Spies hand this man something?

A. Yes sir.

Q. And this something that this man received he put in his pocket?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Now didn't you hear the word "bomb" at that time?

A. No

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sir.

Q. Didn't you hear "police"?

A. No sir.

Q. Didn't you hear "knives and revolvers"?

A. No sir.

Q. Didn't hear anything?

A. No sir.

Q. He just took and put it down? Do you know whether it was a chew of fine cut?

A. I couldn't tell that.

Q. You don't know anything about that. You don't know where Spies got it?

A. I don't know.

Q. He didn't say anything when he hadned it to him?

A. I couldn't hear if he did.

Q. Now, have you told all that occurred at Union Street that you heard?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Have you told all that you heard in the alley?

A. I have

Q. Have you told all that you heard at any place?

A. I have told all that I know.

Q. All that you know?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In the cross examination, while you have been undergoing examination by me, have you told all that you heard?

A. I believe I have told you everything; answered all your questions.

Q. Very well. Now then, I want to jog your memory then a little, and have you tell this jury when it was that the remark was made, "Will one be enough".

A. Well, sir, it was in the alley of Crane Bros. Crane Brothers' Alley I should call it.

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Q. Now, was that after Schwab and Spies went down into the alley, and went back out of your sight?

A. Yes sir.

Q. You knew it was Mr. Schwab; you knew his name at that time?

A. No, sir.

Q. He had been pointed out by Mr. Brazelton; that was the only way I knew him.

Q. That is the reason that you knew it was Schwab. That is, that you had been told it was Schwab?

A. I know that I was told that it was Schwab, and I know --

Q. (Interrupting) You know that that is the man?

A. I know that is the man.

Q. At the time that he went into the alley, you knew that he was called Schwab, didn't you?

A. Yes sir, I knew it was Schwab; at least I thought so.

Q. What?

A. At least I thought it was Schwab, and I found out afterwards that it was.

Q. I want to call your attention again to your testimony before the coroner's jury. Didn't you in your testimony before the coroner's jury, say that you saw Spies go into the alley with a man, and described the man that you saw go in and point out Fischer and say that you believed that that was the man that went in the alley with Spies?

A. I did not.

Q. Nothing of that kind? You told there at the coroner's jury, that it was Schwab, did you?

A. Yes sir.

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Q. Yes. All right. There is nothing like being positive. Now, in the alley, while Mr. Schwab and Mr. Spies was there, was there anybody else there with them?

A. Not that I saw.

Q. Was there any one besides those two men went into the alley?

A. Not that I saw.

Q. Was there any besides those two men came out of the alley together?

A. Not that I saw.

Q. Did you see anybody besides those two conversing -- talking?

A. No, sir.

Q. Have any conversation?

A. No sir.

Q. Now, I want to ask you if you don't remember of meeting Mr. Fischer there; the man next to the gentleman that has whiskers?

A. Meeting him where?

Q. At the library room of the jail?

A. Yes sir.

Q. Now, I will ask you who was present at that interview?

A. I had no interview whatever with them.

Q. Who was present at the time you were there and saw him? Wasn't Mr. Furthman there?

A. Mr. Furthman, yes sir.

Q. Didn't you turn around to Mr. Fischer and say, "That man was with them in the alley"?

A. I did not.

Q. Nothing of that kind?

A. Nothing of that kind.

Q. Never designated Mr. Fischer as being the man that you had seen with these parties at that time?

A. I never did.

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Q You said you didn't know him?

A I did.

Q You remember what you said, don't you?

A I said I didn't know him.

Q That he was a man that you didn't see in the alley or anywher else about that building?

A I didn't say that.

Q Now, if you have ever said anything else about Fischer, or in connection with Mr. Schwab or Mr. Spies, just tell us?

A I didn't say anything.

Q Now, this third man that you say he received something and put it in his pocket, where did you see him next?

A I saw him on the wagon.

Q Did you see Mr. Schwab on the wagon?

A No, sir I did not,

Q How long did Mr. Schnaubelt stay on the wagon?

A Probably an hour.

Q Did he leave then?

A I can't say whether he did or not.

Q Were you there when the bomb was exploded?

A I was not.

Q You were not there?

A No, sir.

Q Whereabouts do you live?

A I live at 190 South Peoria street.

Q How long have you lived there?

A A little over a week.

Q Where did you live before?

A At 185 South Green.

Q How long have you lived in Chicago?

A Six years--- not quite six years.

Q Where did you come from?

A I came from Lewistown, Pennsylvania.

Q Were you born and raised there?

A Yes, sir.

Q What was your business before you came here?

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A I was clerking for an uncle of mine.

Q What kind of a clerk?

A Druggist's clerk.

Q Clerked in a drug store?

A Yes sir.

Q What did you next do when you first came to Chicago?

A Clerked for Marshall Field.

Q How long did you stay there?

A I staye